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lessdazed comments on Rationality Lessons Learned from Irrational Adventures in Romance - Less Wrong
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I think that the burden of proof is on those criticizing authors for using particular language.
It ought to disqualify the prosecutors from bringing such cases if there can't be evidence to support them, so it seems to me you're on a "side" if you think that.
Both sides are criticizing the other for using particular language. Bob says x. Susan says saying x is racist (criticizing Bob). Bob says saying something is racist sneaks in connotations (criticizing Susan).
I don't know what you're talking about here.
Edit: If I understand you right I guess I don't see a justification for 'burden of proof' type analyses except in literal court rooms. There usually isn't a reason for them other than presumption and status quo bias.
The criticisms are importantly different.
"Susan says saying x is racist."
There is nothing wrong with that statement, but "arguing [...] whether or not you can be racist/sexist/whatever without intentionally being a bigot," is confused, though not necessarily accusatory.
"Bob says saying something is racist sneaks in connotations."
Bob is saying something not confused, but coherent and accusatory. "If you and Jandila don't mean to sneak in these connotations, say so;" is unfair. Bob has to address the argument as if those connotations were not intended, even if they probably were (in his mind), or weren't but probably are so misinterpreted by others (in his models of them), he can't decline to address the actual argument unless he has overwhelming evidence that it was designed primarily to manipulate and not substantially to present evidence.
If it's easier for Bob to show the argument is dishonest rather than refute it, it's fine to let him do that if he feels it is better for some reason, and I don't think Bob owes an explanation of how the argument was wrong or even an honest attempt to try and understand it, depending on how sinuous and sinuous it was.
(...)
The problem is that without the connotations associated with the word, Susan's statement doesn't even constitute a counter argument.
Susan's statement isn't supposed to be a counter argument, just an argument. (When I described the situation above I could have as easily started with "Bob does something racist" instead of "says. She may or may not have a propositional disagreement with what Bob said.)
[And now we have two threads about Bob. He is apparently both a racist and terrible with women.]
The presumed purpose of the statement is to criticize Bob's argument and/or action. To do this it relies on the connotations of the word "racist".
It relies on the implication that the user of the word frowns on racisms and that other people ought to as well. This is different from the connotation that someone who does something racist must be intentionally bigoted or some kind of secret white supremacist. The difference is that the first is merely a normative implication that is obvious to everyone while the second suggests additional beliefs about Bob that are being snuck in but not officially defended by anyone.
That's still sneaking in connotations unless deserving to be frowned upon is part of the definition of "racism". However, in that case Susan needs to establish that the action and/or argument deserves to be frowned upon in addition to satisfying the other parts of the definition of racism to justify her claim that the action and/or argument is indeed "racist". Notice that what you called "defensiveness" in the comment that started this sub-thread is simply Bob pointing out that she hasn't done so.
Essentially Susan is trying to argue that Bob's action and/or argument is racist and hence by definition bad. This argument runs into the problem Eliezer discusses in that article.
Too many guards were facing the wrong direction until now.
The problem isn't so much that connotations may sneak in, it's that relevance may sneak out. That's why I said some things were confused and not even an argument: the key step was that a label applied and everything with that label was invalid, and that thinking something is an argument doesn't make it so be it sentences or even a string of arbitrary characters, and so on.
It's too difficult and too costly in terms of accusations made and inferences drained from language to zealously guard against bad connotations.
No, it's merely an assumption in polite society. Bob is free to say that he doesn't care that he's being racist-- but that is not what he is being defensive about.
The defensiveness is in response to the connotation which Jandila at the very start of the thread disclaimed:
There is a connotation that doing something racist or sexist means you're intentionally trying to hurt people, that you're a bad person instead of just making a mistake or being ignorant. When I say there is an implication to the word "racism" that my activist friends aren't paying attention to I'm talking about that not the implication that a racist statement shouldn't be said. Note, those activist friends consider everyone a racist, themselves included.
You're still trying to sneak in connotations, notice how you seem to be trying to exclude the possibility that a statement you describe as racist could actually be true, or that an action you describe as racist could actually be rational.
Also, why are you getting so defensive about my pointing out that you're sneaking in connotations? There is a connotation that sneaking in connotations or exhibiting some other bias means you're intentionally trying to mislead people, that you're a bad person instead of just making a mistake or being ignorant. Note, people on lesswrong consider everyone biased, themselves included.
What if someone thought that even with the connotations associated with the word, it still wouldn't constitute a counter argument?
Then why did Susan make that statement at all?
Any arbitrary string of characters djRX3YeKTQUw BdIml13Ep6vAqa8WdflzY 7adQKSEXDp0paMg7K87 pKw4CCey C068tqagUkSs7H7HsCZdA 84MaxAJr4VwIV28tASRPcDO1Wtv1Oh02DTyFyaM PcAOPJ2CLBnztEG6 4kvjZ3aTKHEcPMN2gjOjzuWB pdzmu9hPRQnmYEJZ Uy6Q96cIkguaYbgwJcte
Is that a ponycode?
It's ponycode for:
"may subjectively be considered a counterargument but that doesn't make it important. The statement was made because it was intended to make a certain point, even though its mechanism was to exclude things from consideration based on a labeling criteria too many steps removed from truth."