Will_Newsome comments on Are Deontological Moral Judgments Rationalizations? - Less Wrong

37 Post author: lukeprog 16 August 2011 04:40PM

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Comment author: Will_Newsome 16 August 2011 07:20:14PM *  6 points [-]

I'm having trouble with this post.

First I was like wha because I didn't see a clear way for a judgment to be a rationalization. It took me awhile to figure out what was meant. If anyone else happens to be similarly confused, Greene's explanation is: "Deontology, then, is a kind of moral confabulation. We have strong feelings that tell us in clear and uncertain terms that some things simply cannot be done and that other things simply must be done. But it is not obvious how to make sense of these feelings, and so we, with the help of some especially creative philosophers, make up a rationally appealing story: There are these things called 'rights' which people have, and when someone has a right you can’t do anything that would take it away."

The emphasis on common folk strikes me as unfortunate in itself. Such focus makes me wary; equivocation becomes too easy, as do apparent victories. Even when data about common folk isn't used for propaganda the mind still treats it as an example of stupidity, any reversal of which gets bonus points.

But the equivocation is my real problem. I dislike the terminology and think it is insidious. "Utilitarian" and "deontological" modules? "Deontological" judgment? The connection between the folk morality of the common man and the deontologies of the philosophers is not well-made in this post; hinting that the same neurological processes could perhaps lead to both, based on a few studies, just isn't enough to justify the provocative terminology. Indeed, the key link is basically skipped over:

First, it could be that both kinds of moral judgment are generally 'cognitive', as Kohlberg’s theories suggest (Kohlberg, 1971). At the other extreme, it could be that both kinds of moral judgment are primarily emotional, as Haidt’s view suggests (Haidt, 2001). Then there is the historical stereotype, according to which consequentialism is more emotional (emerging from the 'sentimentalist' tradition of David Hume (1740) and Adam Smith (1759) while deontology is more 'cognitive' [including the Kantian 'rationalist' tradition: see Kant (1785)]. Finally, there is the view for which I will argue, that deontology is more emotionally driven while consequentialism is more 'cognitive.'

We have already seen the neuroscientific evidence in favor of Greene's view. Now, let us turn to further evidence from the work of Jon Haidt.

I do not see how the evidence supports Greene's view. It can be argued that it does, but the obvious arguments do not seem particularly strong. I do not find the relevant parts of Greene's "The Secret Joke of Kant’s Soul" very persuasive---indeed I find them mildly anti-persuasive. ('I'm sure that the proponents of the philosophical position I am tarring with low status associations would disagree with me, but you see, religious people would act similarly and would also be wrong' is a really obnoxious approach to conceptual gardening.)

Individuals who are (1) high in "need for cognition" and low in "faith in intuition", or (2) score well on the Cognitive Reflection Test, or (3) have unusually high working memory capacity... all give more utilitarian judgments.

I would bet that most deontologist philosophers fit those specifications, especially the most influential ones.

The experiments were done over very short timescales. Philosophers think over very long timescales. It's not clear to what extent data from the former can tell us about the reasons of the latter.

bla bla words bla equivocation something bla too tired to write in a way that humans can understand, organizing points too difficult, stupid signalling constantly so as not to tread on toes. bla bla complaints about terminology. bla meta level stuff about being cautious, principle of charity, bla. insert some placating thing or another.

ETA: TLDR: This post seems to implicitly bully a half-straw man and I don't see what it's supposed to teach us. Luke, might you explain your motivations a little more?

Comment author: lukeprog 16 August 2011 07:37:24PM *  3 points [-]

The emphasis on common folk strikes me as unfortunate in itself. Such focus makes me wary; equivocation becomes too easy, as do apparent victories.

Note that philosophers usually have the same judgments as 'common folk' on trolley problems (Fischer & Ravizza, 1992). Also see this post from Eric Schwitzgebel. He suggests that philosophers are actually more likely to rationalize because (1) they have more powerful tools for rationalization, (2) rationalization for them has a broader field of play (via tossing more of morality into doubt), and (3) they have more psychological occasion for rationalization (by nurturing the tendency to reflect on principles rather than simply take things for granted).

In one experiment, Schwitzgebel found that "philosophers, more than other professors and more than non-academics, tended to endorse moral principles in labile ways to match up with psychologically manipulated intuitions about particular cases." In another study he found that "professional ethicists, more than professors in other fields, seemed to exhibit self-congratulatory rationalization in their normative attitudes about replying to emails from students."

But the equivocation is my real problem. I dislike the terminology and think it is insidious. "Utilitarian" and "deontological" modules? "Deontological" judgment? The connection between the folk morality of the common man and the deontologies of the philosophers is not well-made in this post; hinting that the same neurological processes could perhaps lead to both, based on a few studies, just isn't enough to justify the provocative terminology.

Did you see the bit where Greene explains in more detail what he means by these terms? I quoted some of it here.

I do not find the relevant parts of Greene's "The Secret Joke of Kant’s Soul" very persuasive

If you have time, I'd like to hear more about this. Were there, for example, methodological problems with the studies linking deontological-style judgments to emotional processing, or with the studies linking utilitarian judgments to more 'cognitive' kinds of mental processing?

Comment author: Will_Newsome 16 August 2011 08:08:28PM *  4 points [-]

Note that philosophers usually have the same judgments as 'common folk' on trolley problems (Fischer & Ravizza, 1992).

'Course, but mere correlation of binary judgments tells us little about the similarity of causal mechanisms that lead to their judgments. We should expect philosophers to have more reasons, and more disjunctive ones. Even overlap of reasons doesn't necessarily give us license to imply that if deontologist philosophers weren't biased in the same way as common folk are then they wouldn't be deontologists; we must be careful with our connotations. True beliefs have many disjunctive supporting reasons, and it would be unwise to presuppose that parsimony is on the side of deontology being 'true' or 'false' such that finding a single reason for or against it substantially changes the balance. If you want to believe true things then your wanting to believe something becomes correlated with its truth... "rationalization" is complex and in some ways an essential part of rationality.

All that said, Schwitzgebel's experiment does seem to indicate commonplace 'bad' rationalization. (ETA: I need to look closer at effect sizes, prestige of philosophers, etc, to get a better sense of this though.)

Did you see the bit where Greene explains in more detail what he means by these terms?

Yeah, and I see their logic and appeal; still, the equivocations seem to be unnecessary and distracting. (It would've been much less contentious to use less provocative terms to describe the research and then separately follow that up with research like Schwitzgebel's; this would allow readers to have more precise models while also minimizing distraction.) If this were anywhere except Less Wrong I'd think it was meh, but here we should perhaps make sure to correct errors of conceptualization like that. This has worked in the past. That said, it would have been more work for you, which is non-trivial. Furthermore I am known to be much more paranoid than most about these kinds of things. I'd argue that that's a good thing, but, meh.

Were there, for example, methodological problems with the studies linking deontological-style judgments to emotional processing, or with the studies linking utilitarian judgments to more 'cognitive' kinds of mental processing?

Neither, the "relevant parts" I was speaking of were the parts where he argued that Kant and other philosophers were falling to the same errors as the members of the studies. I still find his arguments to be weak; e.g. the section Missing the Deontological Point struck me as anti-persuasive. However Schwitzgebel's experiment makes up for Greene's lack of argument. Are there any meta-studies of that nature? (Presumably not, especially as that experiment seems to have been done in the last year.)

Comment author: lukeprog 16 August 2011 08:29:40PM 0 points [-]

I still find his arguments to be weak; e.g. the section Missing the Deontological Point struck me as anti-persuasive. However Schwitzebel's experiment makes up for Greene's lack of argument. Are there any meta-studies of that nature?

Sure. There's Weinberg et al.:

Recent experimental philosophy arguments have raised trouble for philosophers’ reliance on armchair intuitions. One popular line of response has been the expertise defense: philosophers are highly-trained experts, whereas the subjects in the experimental philosophy studies have generally been ordinary undergraduates, and so there’s no reason to think philosophers will make the same mistakes... We consider three promising hypotheses concerning what philosophical expertise might consist in: (i) better conceptual schemata; (ii) mastery of entrenched theories; and (iii) general practical know-how with the entertaining of hypotheticals. On inspection, none seem to provide us with good reason to endorse this key empirical premise of the expertise defense.

Comment author: Nisan 18 August 2011 05:43:37PM 1 point [-]

The connection between the folk morality of the common man and the deontologies of the philosophers is not well-made in this post; hinting that the same neurological processes could perhaps lead to both, based on a few studies, just isn't enough to justify the provocative terminology.

To make this criticism of Greene more concrete, I will point out that a "consequentialist" judgment, in Greene's terminology, is one in which consideration of outcomes have trumped or overpowered or have won in spite of other considerations; and a "deontological" judgment is one in which other considerations have won in spite of the outcomes. An actual consequentialist theory will always output "consequentialist" judgments, but a deontological theory will sometimes output "deontological" judgments and sometimes output "consequentialist" judgments.

So one can sort of see where Greene's terminology is coming from, but in the context of the eternal debate between consequentialists and deontologists it would be uncharitable to imply that deontologists always give "deontological" judgments.