Circusfacialdisc comments on Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality discussion thread, part 8 - Less Wrong

8 Post author: Unnamed 25 August 2011 02:17AM

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Comment author: Circusfacialdisc 26 August 2011 12:53:33AM 8 points [-]

The most recent update would suggest that fairly standard shielding charms can stop blunt impact.

"Daphne could hardly see the movement as Susan seemed to hit the corridor wall and then bounce off it like she was a rubber ball and her legs smashed into Jugson's face, it didn't go through the shield but the sixth-year went sprawling backward with the impact"

There appears to be conservation of momentum, but the momentum from typical firearms spread out over your entire body isn't even going to leave a bruise, assuming said charms are up to dealing with something with as much sectional density and velocity as a bullet.

IMO a good model for wizard duels vis a vis muggle innovations and creative thinking is the ritualized warfare practiced in the Americas in pre-Columbian times. Lot's of punches pulled, lots of unstated mutual agreements not to escalate, and a general low-intensity level of aggression that doesn't get too many people killed.

Comment author: [deleted] 27 August 2011 10:07:52AM *  2 points [-]

IMO a good model for wizard duels vis a vis muggle innovations and creative thinking is the ritualized warfare practiced in the Americas in pre-Columbian times. Lot's of punches pulled, lots of unstated mutual agreements not to escalate, and a general low-intensity level of aggression that doesn't get too many people killed.

Just not partially motivated by the need to capture opponents for sacrifice?

Comment author: gwern 27 August 2011 09:59:23PM 4 points [-]

Perhaps sacrifices are the real source of magic. Not really equivalent exchange, given the trivial uses magic is usually put to, but that's thermodynamics for you - 'you can't win, you can't break even, and you can't quit'.

Comment author: [deleted] 29 August 2011 02:47:44PM 5 points [-]

Hm. In Chapter 74, we learn that all ritual magic requires a sacrifice, and Harry muses about all the pulled punches in wizard warfare. Iiinteresting.

This is one of the few speculations that I would actually like to see confirmed-- I find it very satisfying, for some reason.

Comment author: Logos01 30 August 2011 09:15:49AM 7 points [-]

Hm. In Chapter 74, we learn that all ritual magic requires a sacrifice, and Harry muses about all the pulled punches in wizard warfare. Iiinteresting.

Especially since Quirrell/Voldemort specifically mentions that it is possible to sacrifice "a portion" of one's own magical power -- permanently -- to achieve 'great effects'. I imagine a nefarious individual could conceive of a rite whereby the sacrifice of another wizard's life -- and by extension, his magic -- would cause at least some portion of that magic to be transferred to yourself.

Perhaps older wizards were more powerful because... they had more power? One could easily conceive of Godric Griffindor using this method of execution upon potential Dark Lords in order to combat more-powerful ones.

Comment author: Xachariah 04 September 2011 09:46:57AM 13 points [-]

That seems like an effective method of imprisonment. Force the wizard to expend their power permanently in rituals (or just one powerful ritual). Such a prison would be significantly safer than Azkaban, since any wizards which escape would be effectively useless. They would be permanently helpless; some might consider it an even worse fate than dementors.

On further thought, perhaps that is why the public accepts dementors. Imagine what the prison system could have been before dementors were harnessed for prison work. The state would have an incentive to label people as criminals, so that it could burn their magic. The entire situation would degrade into an ever worsening police state. The discovery of dementors for prison use would be a humanitarian breakthrough akin to the abolishing of Capital Punishment.

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 05 September 2011 07:00:56AM 8 points [-]

I'm impressed. That's WH40K-level crapsackiness.

Comment author: CronoDAS 07 September 2011 10:18:02AM 1 point [-]

It's also straight out of Vampire: the Masquerade - Vampires can become stronger and more vampire-ish by eating the "souls" of other vampires. This is considered a heinous crime in vampire society and is punishable by Final Death.

Comment author: Sniffnoy 07 September 2011 10:39:58PM 1 point [-]

Huh, I thought the obvious precedent was Larry Niven's story about a world where even minor crimes are punishable by death so that your organs can be harvested for transplantation...

Comment author: CronoDAS 08 September 2011 02:51:42PM 0 points [-]

Well, that too. ;)

Comment author: wedrifid 07 September 2011 05:22:47PM 1 point [-]

It's also straight out of Vampire: the Masquerade - Vampires can become stronger and more vampire-ish by eating the "souls" of other vampires. This is considered a heinous crime in vampire society and is punishable by Final Death.

Which means you'd better make sure you drink a lot of vampire souls before they catch you. All of them if possible.

Comment author: Oscar_Cunningham 05 September 2011 08:54:31AM 4 points [-]

Such a prison would be significantly safer than Azkaban, since any wizards which escape would be effectively useless. They would be permanently helpless.

Apart from, y'know, still being humans, right?

Comment author: gwern 05 September 2011 06:18:42PM 1 point [-]

If any of those previous Dark Wizards were dangerous even as ordinary humans, they wouldn't've lost in the first place.

Comment author: Oscar_Cunningham 05 September 2011 06:25:23PM 0 points [-]

Unless they had some kind of really cunning plan.

Comment author: gwern 05 September 2011 06:27:33PM 0 points [-]

If they had such a plan which really truly required them to be non-magical* and somehow was superior to all magical plans, they could just burn their power themselves...

* This makes me very wary as it sounds perilously close to conjunction fallacy. The set of 'non-magical \/ magical plans' ought to be larger than either subset...

Comment author: Circusfacialdisc 29 August 2011 11:46:39PM 5 points [-]

I'm immediately reminded of discworld where technical improvements in magical theory have gotten to the point where a spell that originally required the sacrifice of a human being can now be performed using a few ccs of mouse blood.

Hmmm, what if the practice of magic is weaker in the present of MoR because ritually sacrificing a few dozen peasants for purely experimental ends is considered in bad taste?

I can see Dumbledore BSODing over the discovery that Hogwarts is actually powered by the hearts of ten thousand orphans somewhere down in the foundations.

Comment author: Desrtopa 30 August 2011 05:29:52AM 5 points [-]

I think we can rule that out on the basis that Godric Griffindor wouldn't have stood for it.