ArisKatsaris comments on Problems of the Deutsch-Wallace version of Many Worlds - Less Wrong

4 Post author: Mitchell_Porter 16 December 2011 06:55AM

You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.

Comments (93)

You are viewing a single comment's thread. Show more comments above.

Comment author: ArisKatsaris 20 December 2011 02:24:30AM *  -1 points [-]

You seem to me to be talking about two different things --

(a) - You argue that worlds must have a definite number, because you argue that everything that exists needs have a definite number
(b)- You say that this cardinality must be all that determines the probability of a world being "observed".

Both of these claims are highly suspect to me.
(a) a fuzzy non-fundamental concept needn't have a definite number, and "world" is such a fuzzy non-fundamental concept
(b) I don't see why the number of how many times something exists must equal how many times something is observed. As I said an instance may exist once but be retrieved many times, while another instance may exist once and retrieved less times.

I don't like it being called "existing more" either -- since that's not how the verb "to exist" is typically used, but "observed more" or "experienced more" are good enough for me.

Comment author: Mitchell_Porter 23 December 2011 11:41:37AM 0 points [-]

I don't see why the number of how many times something exists must equal how many times something is observed.

Those numbers don't have to be equal. They only have to be equal in a "many minds" version of "many worlds", where observations are all that exists anyway. More precisely, in Many Minds, the only branching you care about is the branching of observers, and the only "parts of the whole" that are given existential status, are parts of the wavefunction which correspond to experiences. So you never speak of just having "an electron in a spin-up state", but only of "someone observing an electron in a spin-up state". Clearly a viable many-worlds theory must at least have the latter - it must at least say that branches exist in which observers are having distinct and definite experiences - or else it makes no connection to reality at all. But to ascribe reality only to observer-branching, and not to the branching of lesser physical systems, is a remarkably observer-centric ontology; it's hard to see what advantage it has over "consciousness collapses the wavefunction".

In any case, the real point here is that you can't defend the "no definite number" argument by constructing a contrast between observation and existence, because observers and experiences themselves exist. In a Many-Worlds context, the observer is not outside of physics. The observer has a physical state, the experience is a physical state. You use the expression, "how many times something is observed". How can that expression have meaning, unless observations exist, and exist distinctly enough to be counted? So if you're in a Many-Worlds ontology and counting experiences, but you insist that worlds can't be counted, then what exactly are you counting? Where are these distinct countable experiences located?

I don't like it being called "existing more" either ... but "observed more" or "experienced more" are good enough for me.

If A is observed, then A has an observer; when you say A is "observed more" than B, you are saying that the observer of A "exists more" than the observer of B.

Comment author: wedrifid 23 December 2011 01:51:41PM 1 point [-]

More precisely, in Many Minds, the only branching you care about is the branching of observers, and the only "parts of the whole" that are given existential status, are parts of the wavefunction which correspond to experiences.

Is this theory one that is advocated by actual physicists? If so that is scary!