I'm not the only one getting a somewhat cult-like vibe from this, am I?
But really, this seems incredibly impractical. A few Lesswrongians meeting up and getting high are not going to solve the world's problems. Not that Cannabis might not be of some assistance to actual experts, but simply being rational does not immediately qualify you to solve very much.
I'm not the only one getting a somewhat cult-like vibe from this, am I?
I'm only using concepts created by members of the community to help ensure understanding of the material. I'm in no way attached to the idea of "x-rationality" and "rationality dojos". This method could be easily utilized by anyone with a cursory understanding of cognitive biases.
A few Lesswrongians meeting up and getting high are not going to solve the world's problems
Again, maybe not, but if the tool is shown to be even 5% more effective than a normal brainstorming process, then won't it be worth it?
Not that Cannabis might not be of some assistance to actual experts, but simply being rational does not immediately qualify you to solve very much.
I really overrepresented the kind of skill you need to have to make use of Cannabis as a tool for decision making. You don't need to be Eliezer Yudkowsky, lukeprog, James Randi, or even me (and I'm, admittedly, extremely irrational and unknowledgeable. I'm working on it). You only need to know the difference between a rationalization and rationality. All the other stuff is really, really useful, don't get me wrong, but I think that's the minimum to use the technique. And the technique, again, is not just to get high... it is to have a rational, sober observer moderating the conversation.
Bah, now you're making me want to rewrite the whole thing without Eliezer's style of cultish countercultishness. It's damned ironic, since when I first discovered Less Wrong I was a bit worried of the same exact thing. Thanks for telling me about the elephant in the room.
EDIT: It reads a lot more sane, now, I think. I've sanitized it of most of the superfluous LessWrong terminology. Remember, I came up with the idea using the less-efficient solo method of "write [high]; edit sober." If I had a Confessor with me to keep the sanity in the first place, I expect it would have read a lot less "cultish." I still think the underlying idea is a good one, and worthy of experiment.
Overall, I think this sounds like a great idea to test. in fact, the idea of having group discussions include a formal confessor, who focuses just on keeping the argument clean, is an excellent idea on its own, even without psychoactive substances.
That said, I suspect I have a decent idea of why you're getting downvotes. The rest of this are some of my suspected reasons why. Thus, this will probably read like biting criticism. I'm hoping you take it in the constructive spirit it's intended.
Find 2-3 rationalists who know every prior needed to solve the problem.
I suspect you mean to find some rationalists who strongly have the background knowledge that's likely to be necessary. An important aspect of being confused about a problem is not actually knowing what pieces are useful to think about at the same time. "All the necessary priors" is something you learn after you've solved the problem.
Assign the odd-rationalist-out (preferably the most rational of the three)
In any group of several "rationalists" that I know, it's not all that easy to pick the "most rational" person. There are many different skills involved in x-rationality, and the ability to spot likely confusions and likely biases - to referee a discussion, essentially - is an important but not all-consuming subskill. On the other hand, I really like the idea of having a designated "rationalist referee" for serious discussions. However, this:
It is the Confessor's job to determine whether the hypotheses created by the brainstormers have high Bayesian probability, and that all logical leaps and/or biases are identified as soon as they are made.
is probably impossible. At best, it's the Confessor's job to watch for missing logical steps or biased arguments, and point them out as soon as noticed. We have to make the Confessor out of a person, after all.
I'd add that the Confessor should suggest clarifying tactics (eg., rationalist taboo, employing the reversal test, or arguing from the least convenient world) where they might be useful.
It's not a huge deal, but by "prior" we usually mean the probability one ascribes to ideas before weighing evidence, rather than the ideas themselves. Your use of "prior" here is probably part of what's set off people's rejections.
Moreover, if you look closely at it, much of your "evidence that this will work" isn't much evidence; it's a shiny anecdote broken into bullet points. The parts that are evidence, though, are only evidence for "cannabis aids unfiltered insight," rather than "this technique will work." (I have my own reasons to suspect that the rest of this technique will work, but I've been putting off the long, well-researched post about brainstorming that I ought to be able to link here. :/ )
The conclusion, as stated, seems vastly overconfident. "Teamwork" is already part of the idea of a rationality dojo. This leaves "cannabis", then, as your stated "missing ingredient" to making a "rationality dojo" work. This... is likely to be a vast overstatement -- not least because it claims only to help the whole group reach better conclusions, rather than spurring the group to act on those conclusions, or getting everyone in the group to internalize those conclusions. Better to say, frankly, that this could help, and that you'd like to test this. (I'm pretty sure that's what you mean! But it's not how it reads.)
Thank you. That is exactly what I meant to say, even if I didn't know I meant to say it ;) I'm making the changes you suggested.
EDIT: Done
Maybe. I don't have any experience with LSD, so I really can't say. The goal is to max out creativity while still being able to listen to your inner (and the outer, the Confessor) rationalist. If you can drop acid and still do that, then it might be an even better tool for days when you can afford to trip a while.
May I just remark that Cannabis is dangerous; It is known to occasionally induce psychosis on first time use and that susceptibility to said phenomenon is highly unpredictable.
A cannabis psychosis is usually permanent, and as far as I can deduce, very detrimental to rational thinking. I will list sources and relevant studies if prompted to do so.
Indulge with resposibility :)
Do you have a source for this? I did a quick search, but couldn't find anything obvious to my untrained eye. Some links suggest that there's a link, but that the causality might run in both directions.
Here is a recent German study strongly linking onset of Schizophrenia and other psychotic symptoms with cannabis use: http://www.bmj.com/content/325/7374/1212?tab=full
And an older Swedish one (I can't seem to find the full article): http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736%2887%2992620-1/abstract
Mainly it seems there is a correlation for those with pre-existing mental problems, or those who are disposed to mental illness but have no symptoms. I advise again that it is unpredictable who are in the latter group.
ETA: Wikipedia has an okay "state of the science" article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-term_effects_of_cannabis
There is usually a couple votes worth of variance, especially when a post first comes up. I live a bit too far from other LWers to implement this myself, but upvoted for taskifying very well.
The first improvement I would like to see is some references for the claims about cannabis. They're common enough, and research on such things is notoriously hard to come by, which is why I still upvoted without, but it would make the point much stronger.
The next suggestion I'd make is that your "solving quantum physics problems" example could probably be replaced by something that general LWers could do.
Otherwise this seems like a good discussion post and I'd love to see someone else try this and report back on it.
upvoted for taskifying very well
Hmm, disagree. This book is an adequate taskification of results-focused meetings. Compared to that, the above post leaves me with an impression of 1) brainstorm, 2) ??? 3) Profit! A large part of the post is about the non-conventional advice to use THC, and that could use more scholarship: the THC-creativity link has been investigated, and I would expect a LW post making substantive claims about it to point to some relevant papers.
The above post leaves me with the impression of a particular structure for group brainstorming. I say it is taskified very well because I could easily (i.e. within 2 hours probably) implement the procedure and notice the difference and attempt to measure the results compared with brainstorming without following the procedure.
I agree that it needs more scholarship; but I expect different things out of discussion posts than I do out of published books.
Yes, sorry, I'm fleshing it out now. This is the discussion area for unfinished ideas, isn't it? I'm taking everyone's criticisms into consideration.
Haha. I've already tried it with a couple of non-xRationalists with great success (read the life plan above); the problem is that a) I spent most of my brainstorming time explaining to them how and why they were making cognitive biases, and b) I don't know any rationalists in real life. I'm currently converting my older brother and his girlfriend.
We'll also need to do a double-blind control, with the brainstormers smoking something that seems like Cannabis but isn't psychoactive. Is there something like that? Maybe we could use ABV. A second control could also be useful, where the brainstormers don't smoke anything.
And, of course, we'll want as much data as possible. That means multiple groups conducting the experiment and reporting their findings. Like you said, it's inexpensive, so it shouldn't be too hard to get the experiment rolling so long as enough people are interested.
EDIT: The following is sort of irrelevant now, since people have begun giving me constructive criticism. I'm keeping it for posterity's sake.
EDIT: Please explain your downvotes. I was led to believe that this community was less susceptible to the follies of the representativeness heuristic (I'm assuming that is a large reason for the downvotes, given MixedNuts' first comment). Does it sound like the meta-belief of Cannabis held by uneducated, delusional hippies that the plant will cure all of the world's ills, and that is why you dismiss it? If you're not downvoting it just because it sounds like another pipe-dream made by a crazy stoner, then ask yourself why you're downvoting it. Examine why the reasoning is bad and then tell me why, please.
I'm quoting the Less Wrong introduction thread
However, it can feel really irritating to get downvoted, especially if one doesn't know why. It happens to all of us sometimes, and it's perfectly acceptable to ask for an explanation. (Sometimes it's the unwritten LW etiquette; we have different norms than other forums.) Take note when you're downvoted a lot on one topic, as it often means that several members of the community think you're missing an important point or making a mistake in reasoning— not just that they disagree with you! If you've any questions about karma or voting, please feel free to ask here.
It is very likely that it is not you, but me who is missing something. I would like to be elucidated.
EDIT2: I got my explanation, see above. I'm glad this will evolve into a discussion.
Intending this as gently as possible, I'm wondering, WingedFoe, if you see anything ironic about this bit in your text and wider stereotypes about the long term results of pot use on human character...
The problem is that I suffer from quite a bit of procrastination, in part because I don't know exactly what I want to do. I don't have any strong passions or any real motivation. My college career, so far, has been an uphill battle against crippling akrasia... Aided by Cannabis, I finally saw the obvious: I need to make an effort to find a passion.
More references to Cannabis research.
Hard to come by because of the legal restrictions. The best sources I have seen:
Altered States of Consciousness edited by Charles Tart, 1969, Wiley.
Pharmako/Poeia by Dale Pendell, 1995, Mercury House.
They include pros and cons although it is obvious both guys are at least a little more pro than con. From Pendell's book: "Smoking it occasionally makes you wise; smoking it a lot turns you into a donkey." (p.199)
Note: The following outline of my research proposal is unfinished. I posted it in the discussion section to spur conversation and get constructive criticism (successfully, I might add). If you have any suggestions, then please make them. I will be monitoring the discussion and improving the proposal until I feel it is ready to be posted as a main article.
Introduction
I think I may have found a novel use for an old technique, which may or may not have implications for rational decision making. I am open to constructive criticism or even deconstructive criticism if you make a sound argument. Ultimately, I would like the experiment to be put to the test. If you have the supplies and know-how to carry it out, then feel free to try it and report your findings.
The Goal:
Methods:
Some evidence that the Cannabis route might be a good one to pursue (more references to be added):
Anecdotal evidence:
Conclusion
References
What I'm missing. To be included later: