SkyDK comments on Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality discussion thread, part 11 - Less Wrong

6 Post author: Oscar_Cunningham 17 March 2012 09:41AM

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Comment author: SkyDK 19 March 2012 05:21:19PM 1 point [-]

Framing someone else who is already an enemy (Snape?)...

This can be done through a false memory charm on ie. Harry. This could be a good way for Quirrelmort to get Harry darker, make him appear lighter and earn more trust points all in one move. This would also qualify as a taboo trade-off. It could easily also be done on the Weasley brothers. All it'd take would be to find out who didn't have a strong alibi at midnight (most people) and/or a time turner.

Comment author: Xachariah 19 March 2012 09:38:50PM 6 points [-]

Frame Quirrell. (Assuming it's even framing and not accidentally getting the right answer for the wrong reasons.)

Harry knows he's an unregistered animagus. Harry has even better blackmail with Azkaban though he'd be loath to use it. People in universe also know that the defense professor is suspect #1.

Harry could just lie under veritaserum that Quirrell did all this. Nobody aside from Quirrell or Dumbledore would even imagine that Harry could do that (well, Snape and McGonagall). Way back in chapter 47, Harry said Bester thought Harry could beat veritaserum. Dumbledore and his faction would be unlikely to volunteer this information; Quirrell would have to GTFO of the country because he's an unregistered animagus (and also Voldemort, though Harry doesn't know that). Quirrell couldn't offer any legal challenge to Harry, so Harry could successfully pull it off against him.

Comment author: drethelin 20 March 2012 01:43:23AM 3 points [-]

Harry is certainly CAPABLE of framing Quirrel, but I don't think he's anywhere NEAR close to framing anyone he considers a friend. I think he's more likely to frame himself.

Comment author: erratio 19 March 2012 10:56:58PM 3 points [-]

Draco know that Harry can beat Veritaserum. And the chances are decent that he'll be well enough to attend the trial

Comment author: Xachariah 19 March 2012 11:38:57PM *  4 points [-]

Draco only observed that Harry said he was an Occlumens. This was a line of thought that Draco wasn't particularly able to follow though on anyhow (since he didn't have the Veritaserum and didn't even know where to get it). He only abandons it when he realizes a more feasible test exists (via patronus).

Keep in mind Draco's first impulse is that it was a complete lie, and he knows Harry (and what Harry can do) personally. Nobody else would believe an 11 year old would be an occlumens this young. Plus, Harry has enough evidence incriminating Quirrell to make any charge stick.

Comment author: Vaniver 20 March 2012 04:09:37AM 2 points [-]

Harry's tutor was arranged through Gringott's; I am sure that the goblins kept records. Whether or not they're obliged to show those records is another issue.

Comment author: DanArmak 20 March 2012 08:11:39AM 1 point [-]

Also, being an Occlumens can be proved directly to any Legilemens, so if Harry wants to prove it to someone it's not that difficult. Just difficult to do it on the spot without any preparation.

Comment author: see 21 March 2012 04:28:34AM 3 points [-]

From Chapter 27:

Or if you were a perfect Occlumens, you could race ahead of any probes, answering queries as fast as they were asked, so that the Legilimens would enter through your surfaces and see a mind indistinguishable from whoever you were pretending to be.

Even the best Legilimens could be fooled that way. If a perfect Occlumens claimed they were dropping their Occlumency barriers, there was no way to know if they were lying. Worse, you might not know you were dealing with a perfect Occlumens. They were rare, but the fact that they existed meant you couldn’t trust Legilimency on anyone.

So, if Harry wants to prove he's an Occlumens, he can. But if he is intending to lie under Veritaserum as part of a framing plot, he doesn't want to prove it; he wants to lie. And if he's gotten good enough at Occlumency over the last 50 or so chapters, he might be able to pull it off.

Comment author: Desrtopa 21 March 2012 04:41:10AM 2 points [-]

It might be too late for that. He told Draco that he's an occlumens, and it's highly probable that Lucius questioned Draco under veritaserum. Draco may already have told him, and if he hasn't, the fact that he could could undermine any plan hinging on it.

Comment author: DanArmak 21 March 2012 04:38:13AM 2 points [-]

I very much doubt Harry is already a perfect Occlumens. The last word we have on that is that he may grow to be one "in time". It would an unforeshadowed and plot-convenient superpower if he was suddenly revealed as such.

Note: even a non-perfect Occlumens can apparently lie under Veritaserum, just not lie to a good enough Legilemens (even without Veritaserum).

Comment author: hairyfigment 25 March 2012 01:50:26AM 0 points [-]

even a non-perfect Occlumens can apparently lie under Veritaserum

Where did y'all get this? I had the vague impression that Veritaserum worked better to detect deliberate lying. Legilimency can detect other Legilimency better, because the potion doesn't do that at all. (And neither of them can detect Obliviation or a perfect Memory Charm, per Chapter 79.)

Comment author: pedanterrific 25 March 2012 02:01:48AM 2 points [-]

Waaay back in Chapter 47, we get:

Look, Draco, I'll take one drop of Veritaserum if you can get it, I'm just warning you that I'm an Occlumens. Not a perfect Occlumens, but Mr. Bester said I was putting up a complete block, and I could probably beat Veritaserum."

Comment author: SkyDK 19 March 2012 10:25:16PM *  0 points [-]

Yes that would most probably work. Even though the costs do seem rather huge (which is why I went for frame Snape).