Blueberry comments on Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality discussion thread, part 11 - Less Wrong

6 Post author: Oscar_Cunningham 17 March 2012 09:41AM

You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.

Comments (1174)

You are viewing a single comment's thread. Show more comments above.

Comment author: Blueberry 25 March 2012 12:24:28AM 4 points [-]

I'm still completely confused: what happened with the rock?

Comment author: Pringlescan 25 March 2012 03:56:52AM *  4 points [-]

Recap of Chapter 17 and how Dumbledore manages to act insane while still giving meaningful advice and not lying.
"Why?" Dumbledore repeated. "Ah, Harry, if I went around all day asking why I do things, I'd never have time to get a single thing done! I'm quite a busy person, you know."

Dumbledore means that he doesn't spend all day asking himself 'why am i protecting the magical world' he just goes out and does it. It doesn't mean he just wanders around doing random acts.

"I'm sorry," Harry said. He felt wretched at this point, he'd just told off Gandalf essentially, and Dumbledore's kindness was only making him feel worse. "I shouldn't have distrusted you."

"Alas, Harry, in this world..." The old wizard shook his head. "I cannot even say you were unwise." Since Dumbledore was the one that wrote the note in the first place Harry WAS wise to distrust him. Dumbledore manipulated Harry like a puppet.

"So... why do I have to carry this rock exactly?" "I can't think of a reason, actually," said Dumbledore.

A current theory is that it contains the Philosophers stone, its certainly more important than just a rock. Dumbledore can't think of a reason why he would need it but he is giving it to Harry Just In Case, hence why he can't of a reason why Harry might need it. Its the same reason why Harry carries around a full med-kit. edit: Okay as has been pointed out to me its a pretty poor theory that is almost certainly wrong.

"This," Dumbledore intoned, "was your mother's fifth-year Potions textbook."

"Which I am to carry with me at all times," said Harry.

"Which holds a terrible secret. A secret whose revelation could prove so disastrous that I must ask you to swear - and I do require you to swear it seriously, Harry, whatever you may think of all this - never to tell anyone or anything else.".

This book is proof that Dumbledore intervened to make Lily Evans distrust Snape, who was the friend she is referring to. Snape whose entire existence is based upon his love for Lily had it taken away from him by Dumbledore. Quite a terrible secret indeed, but until you know that you think that Dumbledore just snuck into the girl's dorms to mess with their mind.

Comment author: DanArmak 25 March 2012 04:39:16AM *  5 points [-]

A current theory is that it contains the Philosophers stone, its certainly more important than just a rock.

If it's the Philosopher's Stone, why would Dumbledore say it was James Potter's Rock, or that he found it in Godric's Hollow? Then again it might be a big rock from Godric's Hollow that contained the (small?) Philosopher's Stone embedded inside. But could Harry Transfigure it if he didn't correctly know its current Form, or whatever the term is? Is it even safe to routinely transfigure the Philosopher's Stone?

Which holds a terrible secret.

It also holds the hint that Dumbledore gave Lily that enabled her to come up with the dangerous potion that made her sister Petunia pretty, enabling her to marry Harry's father Professor Michael E-V. Many people think this is the fabled "single point of departure from canon". Could be important, but it's hard to see how.

Comment author: Alsadius 25 March 2012 06:34:20PM 1 point [-]

But EY has specifically said that there's no single point of departure, so I'm not sure why people are searching for one. If nothing else, the Interdict of Merlin is a departure from canon(even if it took me a while to notice - it's so natural that it seemed to fit right in), and that's 1400 years into the past.

Comment author: DanArmak 25 March 2012 06:55:30PM *  1 point [-]

I seem to remember that someone else quoted him as saying there is a single point of departure, and that's why we're searching for one. Can someone please find the quote if it exists? I'm lazy.

Good point about Interdict of Merlin. But if that's the one point of departure, I find it difficult to believe that Eliezer has a good explanation of why it generated so few changes after 1400 years of history that we still have a Potter vs Voldemort scenario at all.

Edit: Eliezer has written (at least) this description:

This is not a strict single-point-of-departure fic - there exists a primary point of departure, at some point in the past, but also other alterations. The best term I've heard for this fic is "parallel universe".

I presume the Interdict counts as "other alterations".

Comment author: Paulovsk 25 March 2012 01:14:28PM 0 points [-]

Yeah, I never thought about it, Maybe D isn't evil, making Snape suffering with Lili; maybe he was just trying to help Petunia.

Comment author: Blueberry 27 March 2012 07:38:00AM 0 points [-]

Could someone explain how D made Snape suffer?

Comment author: Paulovsk 28 March 2012 03:22:16AM 1 point [-]

Telling lies, plotting, sneakering invisible in the girl's dorm (writing in her book while invisible), so that Lili disliked Snape.

Comment author: Sheaman3773 23 June 2012 06:28:57AM 0 points [-]

...or teaching Lily more about potions, by getting her to examine what would happen with different ingredients in various potions.

Comment author: glumph 25 March 2012 06:35:59AM *  4 points [-]

A current theory is that it contains the Philosophers stone, its certainly more important than just a rock.

It's certainly not the Philosopher's Stone. The only reason the stone isn't at the Ministry (or Gringotts) is that Hogwarts provides the absolutely best protection:

"I do not own it, that thing which Voldemort desires. It belongs to another, and is held here by his consent! I asked if it could be kept in the Department of Mysteries. But he would not permit that—he said it must be within the wards of Hogwarts, in the place of the Founders' protection—" Dumbledore passed his hand across his forehead. "No," the old wizard said in a quieter voice. "I cannot pass this blame to him. He is right. There is too much power in that thing, too much that men desire. I agreed that the trap should be laid behind the wards of Hogwarts, in the place of my own power" (Ch 79).

I can't see Dumbledore going and giving it to Harry to wear on his finger.

Comment author: [deleted] 25 March 2012 04:12:41AM 0 points [-]

A current theory is that it contains the Philosophers stone, its certainly more important than just a rock.

It might just be a rock. It'd violate the rules of storytelling, but Dumbledore reasoned incorrectly, and the laws of probability are LAWS. *ominous thunder* That consideration could take precedence in an author tract like this one, Chekhov's Gun be damned.

Comment author: Xachariah 25 March 2012 10:31:56AM 4 points [-]

Magic in this universe is like a muscle, the more you use it the more powerful it becomes. Transfiguration in particular is mentioned as being extremely dangerous, but learning early in life gets you disproportionate gains in your adult transfiguration, hence why they even teach it to children.

Dumbledore is probably just building up Harry's strength by constantly exercising his 'transfiguration muscle'.

Comment author: Blueberry 27 March 2012 07:39:08AM 1 point [-]

Wax on, wax off.

Comment author: Blueberry 27 March 2012 07:38:46AM 0 points [-]

Reasoned incorrectly how?

Comment author: Blueberry 25 March 2012 04:09:12AM *  0 points [-]

This book is proof that Dumbledore intervened to make Lily Evans distrust Snape, who was the friend she is referring to. Snape whose entire existence is based upon his love for Lily had it taken away from him by Dumbledore. Quite a terrible secret indeed, but until you know that you think that Dumbledore just snuck into the girl's dorms to mess with their mind.

Where are you getting this? What makes you think he intervened to make her distrust Snape, and why do you think that's the reason things didn't work out with Snape and Lily? I don't see this from the chapter.

Also, what's the deal with Fawkes and the evil parents and him running away?

Comment author: Percent_Carbon 28 March 2012 09:31:37AM 0 points [-]

I see you already replied to the post that explains this position.

Dumbledore said the textbook contains a terrible secret. Telling a teenager how to make her sister magically pretty in a dangerous way is bad, but is it terrible?

So there's this theory that the terrible secret is that Dumbledore screwed Snape. You think that's wrong, but do you have an alternate suggestion for a terrible secret that has already been shown to the readers other than the Pretty, Pretty Potion of Doom?

Comment author: Blueberry 28 March 2012 10:22:42AM 0 points [-]

I figured it was just Dumbledore fucking with Harry because he's crazy, like when he told Harry to carry the rock with him, or when he said Fawkes was a chicken.

I don't understand why the writing in the book would have worked to screw Snape. How could anyone guess that it would have that effect.

Comment author: pedanterrific 25 March 2012 04:01:49AM *  0 points [-]

It's not like Dumbledore shies away from flat-out lying when it suits him. Unless you think lying in writing and lying in person are meaningfully different?

Comment author: moritz 27 March 2012 06:27:38AM 3 points [-]

I have a theory. In canon, the fact that Harry's mother died for him produced some kind of magical protection. Harry had to live with his relatives during the summer to keep that protection alive.

Maybe in HPMoR, Dumbledore speculates that Harry can keep that protection in place by carrying a part of Harry's old home (the rock) with him.

Comment author: BlackNoise 25 March 2012 02:02:33AM *  2 points [-]

I think he meant the note that came with the Cloak that said to not trust Dumbledore since he'll take the Cloak from Harry. which he didn't, and then said:

But you and I are both gamepieces of the same color, I think. The boy who finally defeated Voldemort, and the old man who held him off long enough for you to save the day. I will not hold your caution against you, Harry, we must all do our best to be wise. I will only ask that you think twice and ponder three times again, the next time someone tells you to distrust me.

And considering that he wrote the note, and set up the mistrust in the first place...

Hence, Magnificent Bastard.

Comment author: Locke 25 March 2012 01:51:35AM -1 points [-]

I think it's still in his pouch.

Comment author: pedanterrific 25 March 2012 01:57:20AM *  0 points [-]

(Edit: Whoops, this is wrong.) Chapter 30:

Then Harry's mind clicked on another implication, and he looked down at the steel ring on his left hand's pinky finger, and almost swore out loud when he saw that the tiny diamond was missing and there was a marshmallow lying on the ground near where he'd fallen.

He'd sustained that Transfiguration for seventeen days, and would now need to start over.

Could've been worse. He could've done this fourteen days later, after Professor McGonagall had approved him to Transfigure his father's rock. That was one very good lesson to learn the easy way.

It's been a lot more than a month since then, but that's the last we hear of it as far as I can tell.

Comment author: moridinamael 25 March 2012 03:03:07AM 7 points [-]

And ever since, I've looked forward to the moment when Harry, lacking access to a wand, realizes that he has the means to launch a heavy object at a very high speed by simply ceasing the Transfiguration at the right moment while swinging his fist.

Comment author: kpreid 26 March 2012 07:59:26PM 1 point [-]

How about while flicking his finger?

Comment author: DanArmak 25 March 2012 02:11:49AM 4 points [-]

Chapter 43, before confronting the Dementor:

Earlier, Harry had unTransfigured his father's rock from where it usually rested on his pinky ring in the form of a tiny diamond, and placed the huge gray stone back into his pouch. Just in case Harry's magic failed entirely, when he confronted the darkest of all creatures.

Comment author: pedanterrific 25 March 2012 02:15:07AM 0 points [-]

Aha! Well there you go, then.