Manfred comments on Preventing discussion from being watered down by an "endless September" user influx. - Less Wrong

14 Post author: Epiphany 02 September 2012 03:46AM

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Comment author: Manfred 03 September 2012 05:51:33AM *  2 points [-]

You seem to be assuming that honest criticism also has to mean throwing manners out the window.

Hm - rather, I'd say she is assuming that the words you posted, which she then quoted, would reduce civility for a net loss.

I'll requote what I thought was the relevant (i.e. most disagreed-upon) part:

I agree to take responsibility for my own emotional reactions

Making good posts requires that you take a large measure of responsibility for the audience's response. And this is a skill that is difficult to learn/teach as a new user/culture. Having something like the quoted phrase in an authoritative place would send conflicting messages about what constitutes a "good post," leading to fewer people learning the skill of writing for their audience.

Comment author: Epiphany 03 September 2012 06:09:37AM 0 points [-]

I agree in that I think most people would interpret my wording to mean "Throw manners out the window in favor of honesty." but I don't think it has to be that way.

As far as taking responsibility for emotions goes, there's a limit to what you can do. If you have to tell them something unpleasant and disappointing, if that's the truth, you can't control the fact that they're going to be disappointed. If you sugar-coat, they may not realize the gravity of the situation, and what happens next could be worse. Reality is sometimes unpleasant, that's all there is to it. I can want you to be happy all I feel like, but if the reality isn't happy for you, there's nothing I can do about that. If I know of a solution, I'll usually say so. If not, I can say things like "I know you really care about this, so I hate to say this..." and reassure them that I don't dislike them, but that doesn't change the fact that the reality is unpleasant.

Comment author: Manfred 03 September 2012 07:23:38AM *  0 points [-]

"Throw manners out the window" is not what I said you were proposing. I think you may be missing some of what I am saying, or maybe I was just being opaque. So I'll try and give you one clear paragraph:

Thinking about other peoples' emotional responses makes communicating with them much more effective, not less effective. If we want to have a "hard discussion" section, or even just a difficult discussion, I want people to be in the habit of thinking about other peoples' emotional responses, not to consider it "not their responsibility."

To be clear, when I say "thinking about other peoples' emotions," I don't mean typical "manners stuff" like sweetening difficult truths, etc. I mean actual thinking, about other peoples' emotions. And changing what you say so that the other person will understand what you're trying to communicate. That part's important! Or to put it another way, in order to communicate as best you can, you must take responsibility for your audience's emotional responses insofar as they affect what happens to your message, which is often a lot.

Comment author: Epiphany 26 September 2012 06:04:27AM *  0 points [-]

I mean actual thinking, about other peoples' emotions. And changing what you say so that the other person will understand what you're trying to communicate. That part's important! Or to put it another way, in order to communicate as best you can, you must take responsibility for your audience's emotional responses insofar as they affect what happens to your message, which is often a lot.

Yeah, that's worthwhile, and it's an art. I'm not sure how that would even be communicated to people if it were, say, put into the rules or something. It would be nice if that level of quality could be expected but I don't see any way to do that. Do you?

Comment author: Manfred 26 September 2012 06:56:46AM *  0 points [-]

It might be sweet to find some existing experts in teaching people to speak so that they will be understood by people with complicated and relevant internal states.

(Relationship counselors? People who teach autistic people conversation skills? Psychologists who study conversation? Psychologists who study the difference between what the speaker thinks and what the listener thinks?)

Anyhow, maybe teaching people this is a near-solved problem, maybe not (and maaaaybe I'll do some research on this before next time I talk about it :D ). And maybe it's unsolvable. But I'd guess it's solvable - lots of things that seem impossible are really us being bad at the skill that makes it possible.

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