Open Thread, October 1-15, 2012

1 Post author: David_Gerard 01 October 2012 05:54AM

If it's worth saying, but not worth its own post (even in Discussion), then it goes here.

 

Comments (477)

Comment author: [deleted] 01 October 2012 08:36:15PM *  34 points [-]

Gwern Facts Thread

Because we already have an Eliezer Yudkowsky one and this website is awesome.

Found in Yvain's blog post:

Doesn't this mean that I must be wrong about its excellent safety profile? No. See for example Gwern's research on the subject. About half the people reading this paragraph are going to say "Wait, don't the FDA and the entire decision-making apparatus of the United States government have more data and credibility than one guy with a website?" The other half of the people know Gwern.

Comment author: drethelin 04 October 2012 10:40:53PM *  59 points [-]

Unlike Odin, Gwern has plucked out both his eyes for wisdom, knowing the value of double blindness.

Comment author: gwern 06 October 2012 04:08:52AM 8 points [-]

I think we have a winner.

Comment author: [deleted] 03 October 2012 08:09:30AM 9 points [-]
Comment author: Epiphany 06 October 2012 03:34:52AM 7 points [-]

I went on an interview with Google. They told me that if I was hired, I'd be working on a unique innovation. When I asked what it was, they told me "We want to make an app that will search this guy named Gwern."

Comment author: [deleted] 02 October 2012 04:51:28AM *  7 points [-]

Gwern's reality marble, Unlimited Essay Works, is the original, of which Unlimited Blade Works is a mere copy.

Comment author: Epiphany 04 October 2012 07:18:36AM *  13 points [-]

I went to the library and it was empty. They said Gwern stopped by for a quick lookup.

Comment author: wallowinmaya 02 October 2012 10:59:13AM *  12 points [-]

Come on, Gwern deserves more than a favorable comparison to the FDA.

I know several people who have more credibility than the "FDA and the entire decision-making apparatus of the United States government", at least when it comes to drugs. Not because I know so many cool folks, but because drug regulation is a paramount example of government irrationality.

Comment author: Epiphany 04 October 2012 07:43:56AM *  6 points [-]

They went to upload Gwern's brain. They said they couldn't do it, but they were glad that someone had made most of the internet redundant.

Comment author: chaosmosis 06 October 2012 12:43:32AM *  11 points [-]

As long as I'm demanding that LessWrong provide me with the answers to my personal problems, I find myself becoming more and more misanthropic as time goes on. I genuinely like only about five people out of everyone I've ever met, two of whom are family. I feel like almost everyone else is borderline homogeneous, originality seems extremely scarce and I'm bored whenever I try to talk to most people.

Context: I'm in college and not making friends. This is largely because I don't drink or follow or play in sports, I think. I'm bad at small talk. It's also because I'm unhappy with lots of what's perceived as normal around here (eg the subtle dehumanization of women).

I don't really know what to do. I believe humans are social animals and that I'd be happier with friends, but at the same time I really don't like any of the people who I talk to here. Any social advice at all would be useful for me, and anything that deals with the specifics of my situation doubly so. Misanthropy is obviously bad, but I don't know how to transition from my dislike of most people to becoming friends with them, nor am I positive that it's the right thing for me to do in this situation.

Comment author: Alicorn 06 October 2012 01:01:31AM 5 points [-]

What are the people you like like?

You say you're becoming more misanthropic; did you use to like more people? What were those people like? Do you have an internal narrative about why you don't like them anymore?

On Enjoying Disagreeable Company is my post on liking people on purpose.

Comment author: chaosmosis 06 October 2012 01:56:39AM *  3 points [-]

I used to like more people and to just be able to go up to people and talk to them.

When I was very young I was extremely outgoing. That stopped sometime during elementary school, I don't really remember when exactly, but it was because I was naive and trusting and people would take advantage of me (stealing stuff from me, copying homework, pranks and "jokes"). I moved to a different town in middle school and was pseudo popular for a year, in that everyone was nice to me and would talk with me. I lapsed back into idealism, and then ended up having no friends again because no one really liked me, they just liked being associated with the novelty that was the new kid. High school was a gradual process wherein I became less and less popular up to the beginning of my senior year, when I began to regain ground. In college I'm isolated.

The people I like are simultaneously independent free-thinkers and compassionate. There's tension between the two, but it produces interesting people. My favorite person in the world is my little brother who is one year younger than me, he is hilarious in a highbrow intellectual way and always able to find my blind spots and more factually knowledgeable than me, so he corrects me. (My intellectual strength is that I'm good at understanding how different concepts interact and at generating strategies for argumentation. It's not that he totally dominates me in intellectual discussions, but that I move the discussion forward and he stops it from moving towards the wrong areas.) He shares most of my values and traits except that he's a harder worker, simultaneously better and worse at social things, and he's less selfish. He's ridiculously awesome.

I like people less because social norms have grown more complicated as I grew older and I prefer authenticity, I think. Also, the less time I spend socializing, the less knowledge I have about social norms, and there's a feedback loop. Additionally, I think many social norms are morally wrong and I'm not willing to engage in them.

I've read and now reread that post of yours. However, I don't think I'll be able to use any of the advice you give unless I'm encountering these other people often, and there's sort of a chicken and egg situation here because I'm unable to maintain prolonged interaction with people I dislike. I also don't think that liking the people would be sufficient to solve my problem, because other people would still dislike me unless I engaged in the kind of behavior that I hate.

There's also a problem because, now that I think about it, I'm having a hard time identifying positive traits with anyone who I've been interacting with, except for the trait of humor. The primary values I've listed above, the ones that determine who I really like to be friends with, are values I don't associate with anyone here (okay, technically there are two people who I would like to get to know better. That raises logistical issues related to my lack of social skill generally though. And despite those two people, it's still bad that I don't like more people.)

Overall, I'm frustrated that I have this strong desire to connect with people, but yet almost all of the people available for me to connect with are people who wouldn't want to or be able connect with me and who I wouldn't want to or be able to connect with.

Comment author: Alicorn 06 October 2012 02:01:54AM 7 points [-]

My first idea is to ask your brother for advice - he probably has some friends, and if he's good at correcting you in a way you can appreciate, he might be able to figure out what's wrong on your end and help you fix it.

Additionally, I think many social norms are morally wrong and I'm not willing to engage in them.

Can you be more specific? Different subcultures use different social norms. There might be one compatible with you.

other people would still dislike me unless I engaged in the kind of behavior that I hate.

I think you're underestimating human heterogeneity. The fix for this is to meet many different people, not engage in the kind of behavior you hate, and not bother hanging out with anyone who is put off after you learn that they were put off. You are not overwhelmingly likely to run out of people unless you live in the middle of nowhere. (Do you?)

Comment author: drethelin 06 October 2012 02:20:03AM 7 points [-]

I think you're underestimating human heterogeneity. The fix for this is to meet many different people, not engage in the kind of behavior you hate, and not bother hanging out with anyone who is put off after you learn that they were put off. You are not overwhelmingly likely to run out of people unless you live in the middle of nowhere. (Do you?)

I strongly second this. The people who are like you and who you would like most likely also hate the behaviors you don't want to engage in. By not engaging in them, you may alienate the people you dislike, but you'll make yourself more interesting to the people you actually do want to hang out with.

Comment author: chaosmosis 06 October 2012 03:09:40AM 2 points [-]

I don't know how many people do the things I'm interested in. I joined a political science club, which seems good so far. I haven't encountered any other social things I'm interested in though. I need to get more information about what activities are going on in my area, and I should probably expand my areas of interest also.

Yay LessWrong gives me momentary confidence and hope for my social future!

Comment author: drethelin 06 October 2012 03:11:56AM 2 points [-]

Most clubs go out of their way to get more recruits, in my experience. Jugglers and Capoeiristas both like to put on demos and hand out flyers. If there's a student center where you are they probably have info on more clubs/hangouts you can go to also.

Comment author: chaosmosis 06 October 2012 02:25:59AM *  1 point [-]

My first idea is to ask your brother for advice - he probably has some friends, and if he's good at correcting you in a way you can appreciate, he might be able to figure out what's wrong on your end and help you fix it.

Interesting. I know him well enough to know that he would dislike the same people who I'm currently disliking, but I think that for whatever reason he might know more about how to find interesting and intelligent people.

As of now, he has more friends than me. We were roughly equal during high school. His social role when he's in groups is generally to be slightly quieter than average, but then to fire off witty and sarcastic one-liners at certain times. My social role is nothing, I find it hard to function when I'm not problem-solving or analyzing. I didn't really have friends in high school so much as people who weren't actively rude to me and who valued my input, to be honest. I should probably figure out a gimmick and stick with it, like what my brother does, the problem is that this feels inauthentic to me. His comes to him naturally whereas I don't really seem to have any inherent social role.

Can you be more specific? Different subcultures use different social norms. There might be one compatible with you.

Drinking and making jokes about sex. Self congratulatory behavior and bravado. Inauthenticity in general.

I'm uncertain whether everyone is really like this, or whether they're just signaling that because they're insecure college freshmen boys and that's stereotypical behavior and they're scared of being an outsider. I think it's probably some of both insofar as they're internalizing these norms because they find the internalization of these norms advantageous. I hope it will calm down soon if it is primarily signaling, but I don't think that will actually happen because the underlying factors will still exist and will actually be intensified by this internalization. I expect it will wind down once there's an external incentive to be responsible or at least to be perceived as responsible, but that will probably take at least a couple years.

This college is too small for legitimate subcultures to exist. I thought that small class sizes would be a benefit, but I never considered that it would caused increased pressure for conformity, which it seems to have done. That sucks.

I think you're underestimating human heterogeneity. The fix for this is to meet many different people, not engage in the kind of behavior you hate, and not bother hanging out with anyone who is put off after you learn that they were put off. You are not overwhelmingly likely to run out of people unless you live in the middle of nowhere. (Do you?)

I feel as though I'm trapped on my college campus. I live in an unfamiliar city of 150,000 people. I'm unsure where else I should go to meet and interact with people my age. I don't really enjoy anything except playing games and intellectual conversations; I should broaden my areas of interest, I suppose. I don't know how to get involved in off-campus activities though, or how to find out about them, or whether they exist for people my age. I also tend to be very static and stagnant; one of my major flaws is that I'm reluctant to change habits. This is another part of the reason why I feel trapped.

I don't really know how to meet new people without broadcasting desperation, either.

Comment author: Alicorn 06 October 2012 04:32:51AM 2 points [-]

My social role is nothing

I only know a handful of people who I could fairly sum up as having "social roles" in the same way you describe your brother as having. This could be a deficiency on my end, or I could know weird people - or this could be an inadequate model of how social interaction works, and my bet is on the last thing.

they're insecure college freshmen boys

Have you considered making friends with girls? There will probably be less (though still some) of the things you list among girls, depending on what you mean by "inauthenticity". (What do you mean by "inauthenticity"?)

that will probably take at least a couple years.

Have you considered making friends with upperclassmen or socializing with professors you like? Why do your friends have to be your age?

This college is too small for legitimate subcultures to exist.

Just how small is this college? Mine had like 400 people and there were types, if not outright subcultures.

I don't really enjoy anything except playing games

Is there a game store? Those often host gaming events.

and intellectual conversations

Do your friends need to be in-person?

I also tend to be very static and stagnant; one of my major flaws is that I'm reluctant to change habits.

This one could be a problem. Are there any known ways around or through it that are relatively easy to exploit?

I don't really know how to meet new people without broadcasting desperation, either.

Be there to do something else too, and focus (verbally) on that thing (while striking up conversations, of course).

Comment author: chaosmosis 06 October 2012 05:52:05AM 2 points [-]

Have you considered making friends with girls? There will probably be less (though still some) of the things you list among girls, depending on what you mean by "inauthenticity". (What do you mean by "inauthenticity"?)

Honestly not sure how. I've never really ever made friends "on purpose" with people in general. That's probably a lot of my problem. Then there's more issues involved when I have to deal with girls, because I have to deal with gender roles or different expectations or whatever.

I'm not intrinsically opposed to the idea. My issue is that I don't know how to: 1. Become friends with people unless I interact with them a lot, and that's not really happening. 2. Become friends with girls specifically, I assume the issues there with getting to know someone will be even more challenging.

You're dealing with a social wreck here, basically.

I also don't think girls tend to be very authentic at my age, but it's not as though they'd be worse than the guys.

Have you considered making friends with upperclassmen or socializing with professors you like? Why do your friends have to be your age?

I don't know how to make friends with people I don't interact with on a more or less daily basis. My friendships have always just "happened", I've never actively pursued them before.

Just how small is this college? Mine had like 400 people and there were types, if not outright subcultures.

600 in my grade, 2000 something total. Maybe I'm just wrong here and am unobservant.

Is there a game store? Those often host gaming events.

I should check for game events in my area, I guess. There's not one on campus or anything.

Do your friends need to be in-person?

Preferably. I don't think I could make a very good friendship via the internet.

This one could be a problem. Are there any known ways around or through it that are relatively easy to exploit?

Not sure, I need to fight it.

Be there to do something else too, and focus (verbally) on that thing (while striking up conversations, of course).

Just about everyone arrives to events in groups and I don't know how to to strike up conversations.

Comment author: Alicorn 06 October 2012 06:16:15AM 1 point [-]

So I'm getting the sense that you were only restricting the demographics of potential friends by default, which is good, since it means there's more space to look in than you thought. Professors in particular might be good if you mostly want to have intellectual conversations! Show up to office hours, and have intellectual conversations with them!

There's "authentic" again - what does that mean? My best guess right now is "not wrapped up in signaling" in which case - well, you're gonna have a bad time. Humans do that. (Though I begin to suspect that you're oversensitive to it and may be seeing more of it than there is.) But maybe you mean something else.

I don't think I could make a very good friendship via the internet.

Why not?

I don't know how to to strike up conversations.

Go up to someone. Ask them a question ("do you know if the food here is any good?", "can I borrow a pen?", "is the line for tickets?") or pay them a compliment ("awesome t-shirt!", [laughter at a joke they just made], "your presentation just now was fantastic, my favorite part was [x]!") or stand near them and their group (without being followy if they try to leave) and pick up on something someone in the group says when there's enough of a break to do it ("yeah, Communism would only work for nonhuman aliens", "that's funny, when I was in Japan I didn't see any kaiju at all!", "cool, so snakes don't even have ears? Can they sense vibrations?"). Or the classic standby of: Stick out your hand. "Hi, I'm [chaosmosis]! What's your name?"

Comment author: Wei_Dai 06 October 2012 12:13:45PM 9 points [-]

I had very few (physical) friends in college and even fewer now. I find that I get enough social interaction online and with my family (I'm married). Of course everyone is different but you may not need as many friends as you currently seem to think.

Comment author: Kawoomba 06 October 2012 01:20:33PM 7 points [-]

If I may offer some advice: Be careful not to rationalize social anxiety with "they are homogeneous, they dehumanize women, they aren't as original as I am, they bore me". That's externalizing an internal problem.

There are people of considerable intellectual caliber who have no qualms engaging in random small talk (a required skill in many career paths), and you'll only find out who they are once you get past that barrier.

No simple solution, but nosce te ipsum applies.

Comment author: chaosmosis 06 October 2012 01:51:32PM 1 point [-]

How should I distinguish between these types of people? Is there a way that doesn't require me making small talk with lots of people who I don't like?

Comment author: evand 06 October 2012 10:57:04PM 7 points [-]

Perhaps start by actively distinguishing between "people I actively dislike" and "people who I don't actively dislike, and am assigning the dislike label to based solely on my prior that I dislike most people".

Also, in regard to inauthenticity, do you regard making small talk as inauthentic, even if you are saying true things? For example, is it inauthentic to pay someone a compliment if you honestly believe the compliment, but are only making it as a way to start a conversation and find out whether you like them? If yes, I suggest you taboo "inauthentic" and explain why you don't like that approach. I suspect that exploring that label more generally may be fertile ground.

More generally, do you have a problem with people who are not bothered by inauthentic conversation, but also are happy to have authentic conversations? If so, I suggest asking whether this is an area where you should work to cultivate tolerance of tolerance.

To distinguish these people, I would ask what sorts of conversations you consider authentic (again, taboo that word!), and think about what sorts of authentic conversations are easier to start up than others, and what sorts of settings would be appropriate contexts for those conversations. To pick an example from elsewhere in the thread, gaming stores and clubs / groups might be a good one, because it's easy to start a conversation about what types of games people enjoy and why, or to discuss strategy for a particular game. In other words: there's an external reason that makes the authentic conversation on topic.

If you're having trouble finding such groups, have you considered making one? Start a gaming club. Start a LW meetup. Is there an athiest group on campus already?

Comment author: Kindly 06 October 2012 01:23:08PM 3 points [-]

The people who like drinking and sports are the most prominent in many colleges, but it doesn't mean that they're the only ones around.

I had the same problem as you my first year at college, and mainly solved it through three factors, in order of importance:

  1. Making friends in math classes.

  2. Going to a few student-organized clubs.

  3. Blind luck.

Whatever strategy you decide, if you happen to find just one or two friends that also don't have too many friends, you can then try everything you try together and it will be much easier. I realize this might be terribly unhelpful advice.

Comment author: David_Gerard 06 October 2012 11:18:58AM *  4 points [-]

You need to find a (physical world) subculture to get involved in.

Comment author: johnlawrenceaspden 15 October 2012 12:32:15PM 2 points [-]

I don't mean this snarkily, but have you considered drinking or taking up a sport?

Low level sport (where everyone's a bit rubbish and no-one takes it seriously) is superb fun. Obviously, you'll be terrible at it, but if you find a club that's short of people and loses all the time anyway you'll probably be more welcome than you think. And just by taking part you'll get much better at it. It might change your life.

And if you're embedded in a society where social life revolves around alcohol you'll miss out on a vast amount of the fun and happiness that comes with being human if you don't join in. You don't have to overdo it. Just try having a glass of wine with someone you like one day and see how it goes.

I am a pretty nerdy guy, but if I had to relive my life without ever drinking alcohol or playing cricket or rowing or playing rugby I just think I'd probably not want to bother. ( I am unbelievably bad at rugby. )

If it helps encourage you, for a long time I coached novice rowers for King's College (part of the University of Cambridge). Occasionally we'd get a hopelessly non-sporty introvert turning up wanting a go. Some of these guys were so shy they could hardly speak. And they were often the people who enjoyed it the most, and became most committed and most likely to come back year after year.

I'm not going to lie to you, with one exception they never became any good. But they all became much better than they had been, and seemed to enjoy the process, and are some of the people that I most enjoyed coaching.

It helps of course that rowing is actually technically complex and I could talk to these people about how best to turn energy into momentum and how it is that a boat can balance even though its centre of gravity is above its centre of flotation and so on.

I think one of the reasons that rowing is so popular amongst the sciency types at Cambridge is that it is a sport that you can think about in terms of physics.

But it really doesn't matter what the sport is. Just go and find a small club doing something where they have trouble getting enough people together to make a team, and where there's someone nice who knows how to teach it, explain that you've not done anything like this before and ask if they could use you. Stick with it for a month, and if you really hate it give up.

One nice thing about sports is that the skills are easily measurable. Working out what to do in order to make your scores better is part of the fun. Don't miss out. It will teach you so much about life.

Comment author: chaosmosis 15 October 2012 07:02:35PM 2 points [-]

I like sports, specifically basketball, which I'm decent at. But I dislike almost all sports people, who are the ones who are drinking the most and doing all of the things that I dislike. There are probably good people in intramurals activities, but I don't want to be a teammate to the bad ones to get there.

Comment author: drethelin 06 October 2012 02:00:30AM 2 points [-]

Most people are terrible. It's a lot of work to sort the awesome people from the terrible people. I've had good luck using "gamer" "geek", "queer", and "kinky" as labels that tend to more reliably apply to interesting people or people I'm happy to get along with, but your mileage may vary. Every single one of my room-mates plays or used to play Magic the Gathering, for example.

Not making friends with the random people around you in college who are into drinking, sports, and dehumanizing women is, in my mind, a good sign. You shouldn't force yourself to try and make friends with people who don't share interests with you, or at least are interesting to talk to. Try talking to the people you see who are actively weird.

Comment author: chaosmosis 06 October 2012 02:33:46AM 2 points [-]

Try talking to the people you see who are actively weird.

I tried that a week ago. I now have this kid who just might be repressing some homosexuality following me around whenever he sees me (it's the repression that I have a problem with, it manifests itself by him scaring the hell out of me and talking about obscure mythologies and creepy myths all the time, he seems to have serious psychological problems. He's one of those kids who no one will talk to, so he gets creepier and creepier the more he's left in isolation, and then a feedback loop happens. I talked to him out of pity and regret it).

I like the advice, in general. Are there additional filters I can apply?

Comment author: drethelin 06 October 2012 03:20:54AM 3 points [-]

Not exactly a filter, but if you make friends with a person who is awesome and who seems to have a lot of friends you should try to hang out with them as much as possible. Most of my friends end up being from friends I already had.

Comment author: drethelin 06 October 2012 02:48:06AM 2 points [-]

People who are in bands or theater tend to be fun, I like most people I've met who play Capoeira, Women with piercings and dyed/shaved hair tend to be more fun to talk to, and most people I've met who are in math programs or math graduates are awesome. As always, your mileage may vary on this sort of advice.

You said in another comment that you like gaming. Local game stores often have websites where they post information about which days of the week they encourage people to come in and play various kinds of games, from boardgames to minis to TCGS. Some even have pickup roleplaying groups you can just drop in and out of. I definitely recommend googling {Your Town's Name} + game store, or looking at clubs run by your college. Even if your college seems too small to support subcultures they probably exist anyway.

I think it's also helpful to look outside your immediate age group for friends. Many of my friends and most of the people I like best are several years older than me, because when I was meeting them around age 18 or whatever i found everyone around my age intolerable. Similarly, though you probably don't want to hang around high schools you shouldn't necessarily dismiss someone because they're younger than you. This will probably make it harder to date though.

Comment author: chaosmosis 06 October 2012 03:06:20AM *  2 points [-]

date

Friends are a much higher priority right now. Thanks for the good advice.

Comment author: drethelin 06 October 2012 03:08:53AM 4 points [-]

You're welcome. Having gone from basically no friends to quite a few I feel like I owe it to past-mes to help em out

Comment author: johnlawrenceaspden 15 October 2012 01:08:57PM 1 point [-]

Most people are terrible.

Hang on. Most people are really nice. Most put a confident facade over a good nature. Most are a bit lonely, unsure of their own value, and mainly worried about how other people see them. Most are full of interesting thoughts that they are shy to express in front of strangers. Most young people are idealistic to the point of charming naivety.

dehumanizing women

And the women. The ones being dehumanized. Who are they hanging out with? The evil dehumanizers, or the self-righteous nerds, full of anger, staring sullenly and lustfully at them from the corners?

Comment author: drethelin 15 October 2012 11:04:34PM 2 points [-]

Terrible is hyperbole. Most people, even though they're nice, or secretly have interesting thoughts or whatever feel good stuff you say is true about them, are not going to be fun for me to hang out with.

Since when did I recommend being a lustful sullen staring cornernerd?

Comment author: TimS 15 October 2012 01:38:25PM 1 point [-]

And the women. The ones being dehumanized. Who are they hanging out with?

You are reading a little more judgment into the post that I think is intended.

The women (and people generally) that are going to be enjoyable to spend time with are not hanging out with the hyper-masculine jocks. There's no shame in noticing that, and picking social groups accordingly in order to try to find social companions. Particularly because the jocks are particularly poor at being reflective about their own social skills and the social skills of others.

Comment author: TimS 15 October 2012 01:36:44PM 1 point [-]

people around you in college who are into drinking

When I was in college, I once thought that I didn't enjoy drinking. Turns out, I didn't enjoy drinking with people who I was not friendly with (and I had poor social skills and thus few friends). But I really only learned that after following the equivalent of your excellent advice.

Comment author: chaosmosis 06 October 2012 12:48:02AM *  2 points [-]

This is how I feel when parties are going on: http://www.theonion.com/articles/area-man-going-to-sit-quietly-in-darkened-bedroom,29831/ . There's one going on tonight, so this is particularly apt.

Comment author: beoShaffer 06 October 2012 03:45:04PM 1 point [-]

I take it you don't have a LW meetup near by. Do you think you could start one?

Comment author: chaosmosis 06 October 2012 08:38:25PM 1 point [-]

Having friends seems more or less like a prerequisite, I'm also not confident about my ability to lead a group like that. It might be a good long-term goal.

Comment author: John_Maxwell_IV 08 October 2012 07:16:31AM *  2 points [-]

LW meetups don't have to be large or formal events. See Starting a Less Wrong meetup is easy. You could even write in the meetup post that it's going to be highly informal, to set expectations.

Comment author: [deleted] 01 October 2012 10:17:48PM *  9 points [-]

As a non-mathematician, I enjoyed an old blog post from Dick Lipton, Guessing the Truth, which lists a bunch mathematical conjectures incorrectly expected to be true, along with their resolutions. There's also a great comment by Terry Tao on kinds of evidence for mathematical conjectures. For example:

Attempts at disproof run into interesting obstacles. This one is a bit hard to formalise, but sometimes you can get a sense that attempts to disprove a conjecture are failing not due to one’s own lack of ability, or due to accidental contingencies, but rather due to “enemy activity”; some lurking hidden structure to the problem, corners of which emerge every time one tries to build a counterexample. The question is then whether this “enemy” is stupid enough to be outwitted by a sufficiently clever counterexample, or is powerful enough to block all such attempts. Identifying this enemy precisely is usually the key to resolving the conjecture (or transforming the conjecture into a stronger and better conjecture).

Comment author: Risto_Saarelma 01 October 2012 06:37:47AM 7 points [-]
Comment author: [deleted] 01 October 2012 08:44:42PM 5 points [-]

The drama caused in other sciences due to not sorting authors alphabetically is truly depressing.

Comment author: Unnamed 01 October 2012 11:56:19PM 7 points [-]

Economics also has the tradition of ordering authors alphabetically. And economists with earlier-letter surnames end up having more successful careers, quite possibly as a result of that tradition.

Comment author: fubarobfusco 02 October 2012 07:40:29AM 2 points [-]

And yet the effect isn't strong enough for economists named Zweibel to change their names to Aardman?

Comment author: Morendil 01 October 2012 08:10:15AM *  25 points [-]

In the right-hand navigation bar of the site, there is a "Tags" box which lists the most popular post tags. This box has a feature whereby the tags are rendered in a font size proportional to their frequency of occurrence.

Over time, the attribution of the "sequence_reruns" tag to sequence rerun posts has made this feature inoperative: because it's the single most used tag, and no other tag even comes close in frequency, every tag is now rendered at precisely the same font size except for "sequence_reruns".

Comment author: sixes_and_sevens 01 October 2012 10:22:28AM 4 points [-]

You deserve at least 24 upvotes for pointing this out.

Comment author: Slackson 01 October 2012 11:51:28AM 2 points [-]

Strictly speaking it's not precisely the same font size. A few, such as "rationality" and "meta" appear to be one size bigger.

Comment author: [deleted] 05 October 2012 11:38:27AM *  14 points [-]

I just want to double check something with LWers.

Incest among adults is also sex between consenting adults. At least some such relationships are happy ones. Most arguments against incest are arguments where the bottom line is already written since they are made by people who just don't want to admit they are plain grossed out by it. Not only the motivation, but many of the arguments are basically the same as arguments in favour of homophobia. If the person has an identity centred on fighting "bigotry" cognitive dissonance hilarity ensues.

Bonus round: Arguments against incestuous couples having children is a fundamentally eugenicist argument. Applying it like a consequentalist results in concluding many other kinds of couples should be discouraged just as much (perhaps even with imprisonment since that is the price of discovered incest in many countries) or incest being legalized.

German incest couple lose rights ruling

The ECHR said the main basis of punishment for incestuous relationships was “the protection of marriage and the family”, and because it blurs family roles.

It also noted “the risk of significant damage” to children born of such a relationship.

Comment author: ArisKatsaris 05 October 2012 01:22:55PM *  3 points [-]

Incest among adults is also sex between consenting adults.

True, but that's largely a noncentral fallacy.

Most arguments against incest are arguments where the bottom line is already written since they are made by people who just don't want to admit they are plain grossed out by it.

If I'm grossed out by it, why am I watching lesbian incest hentai? :-)

Not only the motivation, but many of the arguments are basically the same as arguments in favour of homophobia. If the person's has an identity centred on fighting "bigotry" cognitive dissonance hilarity ensues.

Agreed. But not all the arguments are basically the same. Some of the arguments are more like the "teachers shouldn't date their students" argument and the "psychologists shouldn't date their patients" or even "50-year olds shouldn't date 20-year olds" argument, and reflect on the likely unhealthy effects of power-imbalance.

The power-imbalance in intergenerational incest is obvious. In intragenerational incest it can of course be significantly less clear; especially in cases like the German couple where the siblings only met during adulthood.

Bonus round: Arguments against incestuous couples having children is a fundamentally eugenicist argument.

That's a plus to those arguments, not a minus -- because we're moving to a consequentialist perspective from an arbitrary deontologist one.

Applying it like a consequentalist results in concluding many other kinds of couples should be discouraged just as much

Perhaps they should -- but keep in mind that banning incest bars any one person from a very small subset of potentially desirable sex partners -- much like barring psychiatrists from sexing their patients. On the other hand barring e.g. old people from having sex, or gay people having sex, pretty much precludes them from having pleasurable sex altogether. The cost of such a policy seems higher in such a case.

That having been said, I'd have been all in favour of applauding the German couple (especially since they didn't grow up together) if they had only made sure they didn't have children via e.g. vasectomy, getting tubes tied, etc...

Comment author: [deleted] 05 October 2012 02:08:24PM *  5 points [-]

I should emphasise this is written in a way to highlight some of the cognitive dissonance I saw in how reasonably intelligent people responded to the story, accepting arguments they would be outraged to hear in a different context.

If you've read my comment history you probably know that I approve of eugenics (encouraging some people to have children while discouraging others based on their genetic material). Also I'm sceptical of the coherence of the concept "consent" and think power imbalances can be features not bugs when it comes to humans.

Comment author: TimS 07 October 2012 08:36:02PM 2 points [-]

Wait - skeptical of the concept of consent? Like I-consent-to-pay-you-money-in-exchange-for-your-car consent?

Comment author: Multiheaded 31 October 2012 12:18:43PM *  1 point [-]

power imbalances can be features not bugs when it comes to humans

Right, and excessive+indiscriminate killing power might be a feature not a bug when it comes to weapons, as it might give you peace through deterrence instead of just more slaughter. This doesn't imply that nukes aren't horrifically dangerous and don't have the potential to fuck things up for a long time/permanently. And power imbalances can also be horrifically dangerous and do lasting, pervasive and insidious damage to innocent people.

That both categories are here to stay doesn't mean that we'd be wise to get less paranoid about them or relax our vigilance.

EDIT: also -

..I approve of eugenics...
+
...power imbalances can be features not bugs when it comes to humans...

That you're against a blanket taboo on "eugenics" doesn't mean that you wouldn't literally kill to to prevent an imminent return of Hitler's "eugenics" cluster, right? Well, of course the difference between you and the mainstream is that you aren't blinded by the "Ancient Lurking Evil" meme of Hitler and don't let it affect your risk/benefit assessment.

But you have zero evidence that the meta-category of "power imbalances" contains no Hitler-level lurking horrors, and mountains of 2nd-hand evidence to the contrary! I mean, look - that class of Bad Things is something that every single variation of feminism - some of them being at each other's throats - agrees to be a clear and present danger. Certainly much feminist thinking is fallacious, cranky or in bad faith - but seeing such uncommon, wide-ranging consensus should call for a thorough self-update.

Also, I don't see why the concept of "consent" has to be coherent in order to be valuable and useful. Plenty of taboos and moral injunctions that we see are incoherent. And yet many of them (take the American centrist mainstream as an example: "extrajudicial execution is always an atrocity when ordered by a state official, less condemnable when done by soldiers or insurgents", or "preach respect for the law, but stall the enforcement of some laws' letter and spirit") you probably wouldn't want to tinker with!

Comment author: Jabberslythe 06 October 2012 03:34:25AM 2 points [-]

Perhaps they should -- but keep in mind that banning incest bars any one person from a very small subset of potentially desirable sex partners -- much like barring psychiatrists from sexing their patients. On the other hand barring e.g. old people from having sex, or gay people having sex, pretty much precludes them from having pleasurable sex altogether. The cost of such a policy seems higher in such a case.

If incestuous desires are common (certain people think they are at least...), having a harsh prohibition on them might cause a lot of guilt even if those people wouldn't actually go as far as to mate with their relatives. So trying to get rid of the prohibition might still be somewhat valuable.

Incest themes are quite common in porn.

Comment author: Jabberslythe 06 October 2012 03:18:42AM 0 points [-]

Whenever I want to trigger a moral intuition that can't be justified by any moral system that doesn't just expressly prohibit it by fiat, I use an example that triggers incest avoidance.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 07 October 2012 07:01:45PM -2 points [-]

You can get even stronger results using non-consensual sex.

Comment author: Jabberslythe 07 October 2012 09:04:15PM 1 point [-]

Non-consensual sex doesn't have to be prohibited by fiat, it falls out of the principle of well constructed moral systems. E.G it almost always causes more unhappiness than happiness, so utilitarianism doesn't like it in almost all cases.

There are cases when non-consensual sex would turn out to be justified, but I think they would be rare and hard to argue even in those cases. Incest is way better as a clear case to use in standard arguments.

Comment author: Athrelon 05 October 2012 10:25:12PM 0 points [-]

Most arguments against incest are arguments where the bottom line is already written since they are made by people who just don't want to admit they are plain grossed out by it.

The most common intelligent argument I've seen against incest is "power imbalance!" which in the case of your news story looks like a case of the noncentral fallacy.

Comment author: [deleted] 06 October 2012 11:38:29PM 1 point [-]

In principle, a society could frown upon parent-child incest but not upon incest between siblings, but that's not what we see, so I don't think that's a good explanation.

Comment author: chaosmosis 05 October 2012 05:28:12AM *  5 points [-]

I'm finding the resources on akrasia that I've encountered on this site to be inadequate. I need help.

I usually have problems being motivated with big goals at all, but I've finally triggered one (unwarranted immediate attraction to someone, which I would like to use as a convenient hack to make myself work out and actually put some effort into my school studies). Hopefully, I'll be able to capitalize on that and start to implement good habits.

Links. I need them. Please?

Comment author: palladias 01 October 2012 03:44:21PM 5 points [-]
Comment author: Viliam_Bur 01 October 2012 08:56:45AM 5 points [-]

Course Builder is some software Google used for making an online course, and now it is available, also with free webhosting if you don't have too many students.

Has anyone tried this? Is anyone interested in this? Are there other easy ways to make and publish online lessons without paying money? I did not have time to explore this product deeply yet, but it was easy to download and install.

Could this be useful to provide some CFAR lessons online? Convert the Sequences into Videosequences? ;-)

Comment author: [deleted] 01 October 2012 08:21:45PM *  2 points [-]

Has anyone tried this?Is anyone interested in this?

Yes, I've been looking into it in relation to this project. If you'd like to join our little informal research group feel free to contact me via PM and share your email address. :)

Are there other easy ways to make and publish online lessons without paying money?

A few but they seem kind of sketchyware and I haven't tried them.

Comment author: Morendil 01 October 2012 10:43:32PM 17 points [-]

Today my 16yo son asked a classmate for a confidence interval on his grade at their latest assignment, after giving one of his own. That's after all 3 of my kids attended a workshop I gave (mixed in with adults, 20 total) on calibrated probability statements and scoring.

Never mind that he gave a 90% interval and missed (due to getting full marks), I'm inordinately proud of him for actually applying the lessons.

Comment author: MixedNuts 02 October 2012 09:54:05AM 8 points [-]

Less-than-sincere modesty is probably the culprit for missing the interval.

Comment author: chaosmosis 03 October 2012 10:53:34PM *  5 points [-]

Intelligent social signaling is another possible explanation. He's 16, after all. On the other hand, anyone who's giving out or requesting confidence intervals at age 16 is probably not too concerned with social signalling, or else is really bad at it.

Comment author: drethelin 04 October 2012 03:43:27AM 6 points [-]

It's a perfect social signal. It's costly in that it shows his nerdiness to everyone, but the actual level of nerdiness is impressive to everyone who values nerdiness.

Comment author: apotheon 04 October 2012 11:59:36PM 1 point [-]

. . . or maybe it's just the manifestation of Impostor Syndrome.

Comment author: gjm 02 October 2012 08:58:30AM 1 point [-]

Not inordinately.

Comment author: [deleted] 10 October 2012 07:56:11PM *  4 points [-]

Why I defend scoundrels, an awesome essay by Yvain. Seriously how can his blog be so good? I find myself linking to it all the time.

Comment author: [deleted] 06 October 2012 05:29:25PM *  4 points [-]

Are you a Bigot? --- a good 5 minute youtue video, it works as introductory level rationality material

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 06 October 2012 06:46:42PM 3 points [-]

A main point is that you're bigoted if you only listen to critiques of people you disagree with (or set critique on authomatic as you read or listen to them) rather than paying attention to their words with attention to those people intend.

Comment author: Epiphany 04 October 2012 07:04:33AM 4 points [-]

Virtualization. I think if you are virtualized (uploaded to a computer, or copied into a new brain), you still die. I keep running into people on here who seem to think that if you copy someone, this prevents them from dying. It seems that I am in the minority on this one. Am I? Has this been thoroughly debated before? I would like to start a discussion on this. Good idea / bad idea tips on presentation?

Comment author: ZankerH 04 October 2012 11:00:29AM *  11 points [-]

I think the LW consensus is that the copy is also you, and personal identity as we think of it today will have to undergo significant change once uploads and copies become a thing.

Comment author: Mitchell_Porter 04 October 2012 04:39:01PM 7 points [-]

Contemporary people are more or less completely bamboozled by the whole topic of minds, brains, and computers. It's like in the early days of language, when some people thought that reality was created by a divine breath speaking the true names of things, or that the alphabet existed before the universe alongside God, and so on. Language was the original information technology that was made into an idol and treated like magic because it seemed like magic. The current attitudes to computers and computation are analogous, except that we really can culture neurons and simulate them, so we are going to be creating hybrid entities even more novel, in evolutionary terms, than a primate with a verbalizing stream of consciousness (which was a hybrid of biology and language).

What is the computational paradigm of mind? Often this paradigm floats free of any material description at all, focusing solely on algorithms and information. But if we ask for a physical description of computation, it is as follows: There is an intricate physical object - a brain, a computer. Mostly it is scaffolding. There are also non-computational processes happening in it - blood circulating, fan spinning. But among all the physical events which happen inside this object, there are special localized events which are the elementary computations. A wave of depolarization travels along a cell membrane. The electrons in a transistor rearrange themselves in response to small voltages. In the intricate physical object, billions of these special events occur, in intricate trains of cause and effect. The computational paradigm of mind is that thought, self, experience, identity are all, in some sense, nothing but the pattern of these events.

These days it is commonly acknowledged that this supposed identity is somewhat mysterious or unobvious. I would go much further and say that almost everything that is believed and said about this topic is wrong, just like the language mysticism of an earlier age, but it has a hold on people's minds because the facts seem so obvious and they don't have any other way of conceiving of their own relationship to those facts. Yes, it's mysterious that mere ink on a page has such power over our minds and such practical utility, but the reality of that power and that utility are self-evident, therefore, in the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God. Yes, it's mysterious that a billion separate little events of particles in motion could feel like being a person and being alive, but we know that the brain is made of neural circuitry and that we could in principle simulate it on any computing mechanism, therefore you are a program in your brain, and if we ran that program somewhere new, you would live again.

People try with varying degrees of self-awareness and epistemic modesty to be rational about their beliefs here, but mostly it's the equivalent of different schools of language mysticism, clashing over whether the meaning-essence only inhabits the voice, or whether it can be found in the written word too. In my estimation, what people say about consciousness, uploads, and personal identity, is similarly far from the reality of how anything works and of what we really are.

If we ever extend human understanding far enough to grasp the truth, it's going to be something bizarre - that you are a perspective vortex in your cortical quantum fields, something like that, something strange and hardly expressible with our current concepts. And meanwhile, we continue to develop our abilities to analyze the brain materially, to shape it and modify it, and to make computer hardware and software. Those abilities are like riding a bicycle, we can pick them up without really knowing what we are doing or why it works, and we're in a hurry to use those abilities too.

So most likely, that biolinguistic hybrid, the primate who thinks in words, is going to create its evolutionary successor without really understanding what it's doing, and perhaps even while it is possessed with a false understanding of what it is doing, a fundamentally untrue image of reality. That's what I see at work in these discussions of mind uploading and artificial intelligence: computational superstition coupled to material power. The power means that something will be done, this isn't just talk, there will be new beings; but the superstition means that there will be a false image of what is happening as it happens.

Comment author: Vladimir_Nesov 04 October 2012 11:13:56PM *  3 points [-]

If you use the concepts of "dying" or "personal identity" in this context, you risk committing the noncentral fallacy, since uploading is an atypical case of their application, and their standard properties won't automatically carry over.

For example, concluding that an instance of you "actually dies" when there is also a recent copy doesn't necessarily imply that something bad took place, since even if you do in some sense decide that this event is an example of the concept of "dying", this is such an atypical example that its membership in that concept provides only very weak evidence for sharing the property of being bad with the more typical examples. Locating this example in the standard concepts is both difficult and useless, a wrong question.

The only way out seems to be to taboo the ideas of "dying", "personal identity", etc., and fall back on the arguments that show in what way typical dying is bad, and non-dying is good, by generalizing these arguments about badness of typical destruction of a person to badness of the less typical destruction of a copy, and goodness of not destroying a person to goodness of having a spare copy when another copy is destroyed.

It seems to me that the valuable things about a living person (we've tabooed the "essence of personal identity", and are only talking about value) are all about their abstract properties, their mind, their algorithm of cognition, and not about the low-level details of how these abstract properties are implemented. Since destruction of a copied person preserves these properties (implemented in the copy), the value implemented by them is retained. Similarly, one of the bad things about typical dying (apart from the loss of a mind discussed above) seems to be the event of terminating a mind. To the extent this event is bad in itself, copying and later destroying the original will be bad. If this is so, destructive uploading will be better than uploading followed by destruction of the conscious original, but possibly worse than pure copying without any destruction.

Comment author: Risto_Saarelma 04 October 2012 07:16:58PM 2 points [-]

Almost everybody starts with the intuitive notion that uploading will kill the "real you". The discussion seems to have been treading the same ground since at least the 1990s, so I don't really expect anything new to come out of yet another armchair rehash.

Chapters 9 and 10 in David Chalmers' singularity paper are a resonably good overview of the discussion. Chalmers end up finding both stances convincing given different setups for a thought experiment, and remains puzzled about the question.

Comment author: shminux 01 October 2012 05:52:43PM *  9 points [-]

Real numbers are not "real". (Inspired by Imaginary numbers are not real, an elementary introduction to Clifford Algebra I came across a long time ago).

I find it a bit funny that people tend to think of real numbers as "real" numbers, as opposed to, say, imaginary numbers, which are not only not real, but also not "real" in a way a Realist would use the word. The paper above even takes pride in not using i in calculations. There is also an occasional discussion in philosophy papers and online of the wave function in QM not being "real" because it uses imaginary numbers.

I find it funny because real numbers are no more "real" than any other numbers. Even the set of all integers is not very "real", as basically everything in the Universe is finite, due to the cut-offs at various scales, such as the Planck scale and the age of the Universe, and whenever you try to disregard these cut-offs, things tend to blow up in your face.

One can potentially consider finite integers as the most "real", given that they correspond to discrete objects we can see, count and calculate. The rest are simply useful mathematical abstractions.

One would think that, given that many useful numbers like e and pi are no more "real" than i or infinity, people would get a clue and stop arguing, but no.

<end rant>

Comment author: Luke_A_Somers 01 October 2012 08:33:55PM 3 points [-]

Agreed. I have no beef with the term 'complex' for the complex numbers. It's the 'real' for the others, and the 'imaginary' for the new stuff, that I mind.

I wonder if a very short treatment of abstract algebra should be given in high school, right before you get to complex numbers. Might reduce the number chauvinism and help with the illusion of number realism.

Comment author: [deleted] 01 October 2012 06:10:56PM 3 points [-]

I've never thought of real numbers as any more real (in the non-mathematical sense of the word) than other numbers, and I've been peeved by popularizations which use “real” and “imaginary” without making it clear that they're using them with a specific technical meaning (e.g. stuff like “special relativity has shown that if space is real time must be imaginary, and vice versa” -- yeah, they do have squares with opposite signs (though modern notation uses real 4-vectors and a non-positive-definite metric), but that's not how a reader would be most likely to interpret that sentence).

Comment author: Maelin 04 October 2012 09:17:31AM 1 point [-]

I've taught a few people about the complex numbers, by stepping through expanding the naturals with the introduction of negatives to make integers, fractions to make rationals, irrationals to make reals, and finally (the 'novel' stage for my audience) imaginary numbers to make the complex numbers.

I emphasise the point that the new system always seems weird and confusing at first to the people who aren't used to it, and sometimes gets given a nasty name in contrast to the nice name of the old system (especially 'imaginary' vs 'real' and 'irrational' vs 'rational') but the new numbers are never more or less worthwhile than the old system - they're just different, and useful in new ways.

Comment author: [deleted] 12 October 2012 02:15:30AM *  3 points [-]

Free TEDYouth Event in NYC for High Schoolers

Taken from the TEDYouth event description page:

Held annually in New York City, TEDYouth is a day-long event for high school students that includes live speakers, hands-on activities, demonstrations and an opportunity for the youth attendees and speakers to connect. TEDYouth coincides with more than 100 self-organized TEDxYouthDay events happening worldwide over a 48-hour period.

This year’s TEDYouth conference will be held on Saturday, November 17th, 2012, at the Times Center in Manhattan, from 1pm-6pm.

More than 20 scientists, designers, technologists, explorers, artists, performers (and more!) will share short lessons on what they do best. They’ll dazzle us with mind-shifting stories, inspire us with creativity and make us want to dive even deeper into this broad array of topics.

The program will be made up of two sessions and a break with engaging activities, demonstrations and even a chance to meet the speakers. Attendance is free of charge for 400 high school students from within the New York City area.

Students must apply by the 15th of October. I personally attended last year's TEDYouth conference and enjoyed it. One of my favorite things about it is that all the attendees were able to personally talk to all the speakers afterwards, including Adam Savage from MythBusters and The Science Babe, Dr. Deborah Berebichez .

Comment author: Kawoomba 08 October 2012 07:26:25AM *  3 points [-]

What's the best place for LW feature requests: I'd like to be able to walk up comments all the way to the top comment, using "Show more comments above". As it is currently implemented, there is no way to differentiate between "button does nothing because it only work a certain number of levels up", and "reached the highest level, i.e. the top level comment".

Comment author: drethelin 08 October 2012 08:12:45AM 2 points [-]

Seconding this. You can get around it by clicking the permalink button to the topmost comment and traveling up further from that but it's still anoying

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 09 October 2012 11:34:20AM 1 point [-]

And I'd like "context" to show (or perhaps have an option to show) the whole tree which includes a comment rather than a single thread.

Comment author: RobertLumley 03 October 2012 02:47:31AM 3 points [-]

Has anyone noticed any problems with the comment score below threshold feature? I have my preferences to show all comments, regardless of score, and this comment is hidden from me for some reason.

Comment author: RichardKennaway 03 October 2012 01:58:09PM 1 point [-]

Yes, and here's another. On the page of all that user's posts, it does appear, at -4. But the permalink to the post shows it as hidden.

Is this a bug or a new feature?

Comment author: RobertLumley 03 October 2012 02:07:57PM *  1 point [-]

My guess is that it's a bug caused by the new troll feeding penalty where you automatically lose 5 karma if you reply to a comment at -3 or below. But I don't really have any evidence to corroborate that.

And I don't think downvoted comments have ever been hidden if on a users page. I'm not sure though, I set my preferences to see all comments as soon as I created my LW account. I have negative associations with things being hidden from me and I'm too curious not to open it up and look anyway.

Comment author: Manfred 03 October 2012 10:28:21AM 1 point [-]

Huh, ditto, and un-downvoting it didn't make it stop being hidden.

Comment author: Risto_Saarelma 01 October 2012 11:25:35AM 6 points [-]

Via John Baez: Mathematics for theoretical physics, a 700-odd page self-contained reference to all the maths you supposedly need to have some idea what contemporary theoretical physicists are talking about.

Comment author: [deleted] 01 October 2012 08:43:26PM 4 points [-]

I saw this pop on arXiv, but I doubt it will be very useful to anyone who doesn't know most of the stuff in it beforehand. The exposition is pretty terse, and there are well over 1000 stated theorems.

Comment author: Vaniver 01 October 2012 10:31:28PM 14 points [-]

So, Yvain posted a blog post recently. I was disappointed. I'm posting about it here because I'll have an easier time following a conversation about my thoughts here than in livejournal comments. I will note that he claims the post is, at most, 60% serious, but that seems at least ten thousand times too high.

A major supporting claim is that if modafinil were legal, it would become expected, and everything would be harder to match the increased ability of humans to be productive.

So the religious people flunk out, everyone else has to work much harder, and in the end no student gains. Arguably future patients might gain from having better trained doctors, but I think this wildly overestimates the usefulness of the medical education system.

A parable:

In the Old Country, the people once did not know of iodine. It was not illegal, but only a very specific kind of geek would eat dried seaweed carried long miles on the backs of beasts and men. One day, a stranger came to the village, preaching of this mysterious substance, claiming that its consumption would make all men cleverer.

The elders convened and discussed this 'boon,' if you could call it that. If one man is cleverer, he profits, but if all men are cleverer, then no man profits. No elder spoke this more loudly than the one whose wife feasted on seaweed, and whose children were free of the stunted look of cretinism. To spare the people from having harder lives, the elders sent this stranger on his way, to not change the ways of the village.

A commentary:

Yvain has seen the misery of Haiti and India firsthand; but it seems only with his eyes.

Comment author: Mitchell_Porter 02 October 2012 12:04:54AM 21 points [-]

What is his main proposition? He has a model of the world in which enormous amounts of energy and money are being spent running a rat race where the satisfaction only comes from winning it, not from running it, and meanwhile there are numerous places where just a small fraction of that energy and money could be spent, creating great and lasting benefits. His proposition is that in the current situation, modafinil is known mostly to a minority which includes people working on some of those important neglected matters, but if modafinil becomes as well known as Prozac or Viagra, its main consequence will be that the rats in the rat race will all run faster, with no net benefit.

Your comments imply that you disagree with this model, but you need to say where and why.

Comment author: Vaniver 02 October 2012 02:23:31AM 18 points [-]

I think that Yvain's thoughts on the matter are poisoned by working in a poisoned field. Would doctors be better if they studied 16 hours a day, instead of 10? Some, but not much. Perhaps people would live a bit longer- but better for everyone to adopt intermittent fasting than to slightly improve the quality of doctors.

But why only give modafinil to studying medical students, and not those who hold lives in their tiring hands instead of books? Given the hideous prevalence of medical errors, and their known association to fatigue, I would far prefer a doctor chemically warded against fatigue to one without such armor.

(I might agree that financiers all turning to modafinil would not noticeably improve the world, and make them worse off- but, truly, he made his example doctors?)

Few engineers, scientists, or programmers that I know would give voice to the complaint that others might work harder. Their whole fields are suffused with positive externalities. When the other groups in my field discover more truths, I am enlightened by their work. When an engineer designs a better device, I am the richer for it. When a programmer writes more and better code, the world hums along more smoothly for it. If more of the world moved at startup speed, and it took new chemicals to make it that way, then all hail the new chemicals! As mentioned in the comments on the livejournal post, caffeine and tobacco are linked to the industrial age, as firmly as alcohol is to the agricultural age. If modafinil becomes the drug of choice for the information age, we will all be the richer for it.

To put it in terms of the model: yes, enormous amounts of energy and money are being spent on positional goods. But modern man's hampster wheel is enough of a ladder that spinning it around faster will result in it climbing more swiftly. Why think that it is solely our tribe that propels the world forward? We do not wear shoes made by rationalists, but by rats.

Indeed, consider what it would look like if Prozac or Viagra were Schedule IV substances, only used by a very specific kind of geek. Would the world be superior, or are happiness and horniness absolute goods, not positional? It seems to me as ridiculous to declare that it is good that the teeming masses do not use modafinil as it would be to declare that it is good that the teeming masses do not use antidepressants. Such altruism and love for one's fellows!

Comment author: cousin_it 02 October 2012 11:15:09AM *  7 points [-]

When a programmer writes more and better code, the world hums along more smoothly for it.

A lot of code is written to win arms races, not improve the world. Online ads, algorithmic trading, the defense industry...

Comment author: drethelin 02 October 2012 04:57:24PM 2 points [-]

Arms races are strong driver of world improvement.

Comment author: MixedNuts 02 October 2012 10:16:23AM 12 points [-]

Given the hideous prevalence of medical errors, and their known association to fatigue, I would far prefer a doctor chemically warded against fatigue to one without such armor.

No, the new equilibrium would be 96-hour shifts, with doctors to their physical limits and making as many errors (modulo differences in attention at constant fatigue induced by modafinil, if any).

Comment author: TraderJoe 09 October 2012 06:40:41AM *  1 point [-]

[comment deleted]

Comment author: gwern 02 October 2012 03:41:41AM 19 points [-]

That's a very long winded way of objecting to Yvain's model of the American economy as largely zero-sum games (eg. poker). If the village is a static economy with fixed output... Then sure, modafinil is fairly questionable. But this story is a way of asserting it is not with hypothetical examples.

Of course, it's not obvious that iodine is necessarily a good thing. Malthusian models come to mind: if intelligence has no effect on subsistence wage, then it can have no effect on per capita wealth and so any effects are redistributional, and if you want to argue it's a good thing you need to appeal to extra things like quality of life... which actually probably would affect subsistence wage since now you don't need so much wages, your quality of life has been improved. Intelligence might come with a one-time increase in wealth, which of course simply causes the population to expand and that the temporarily-increased-per-capita-wealth will eventually fall back down to equilibrium as people reproduce more. :)

"It was a bit sloppy essay of Yvain - cool idea, kinda weak execution" is what I might say if he had posted it to Main instead of his blog.

Comment author: Vaniver 02 October 2012 04:08:13AM 1 point [-]

That's a very long winded way of objecting to Yvain's model of the American economy as largely zero-sum games (eg. poker).

Agreed. That is the heart of my objection, but if I simply say "the economy is not zero-sum!" then those that agree with me will agree with me and those that disagree with me might not see why. I do wish that I had thought to use the reversal test as my example.

Comment author: TraderJoe 03 October 2012 10:09:23AM *  5 points [-]

Although I'm unsure of the etiquette of posting about personal blogs on other sites, I was also disappointed with the blog post in question. It was the first time that Yvain wrote something I disagreed with after reading his post in full and digesting in. I've often disagreed with him before reading it, but he usually persuades me.

This post seemed to rely on the principle that having more spare time is a positional good, with which I disagree strongly. Essentially, giving everyone another four hours of awake, productive time, is the same as extending your life by four hours for each day you are alive [and you do so in good health - extending the human lifespan from 80 to 95 might or might not be a good thing, but adding years to your healthy, productive life, seems a good thing]

Yvain's claim seems to be that 100% of the extra four hours will be diverted into work, but to me that's a) almost certainly not true [the figure would be more than 0% and less than 100%], b) not a bad thing.

a) It seems very likely that, given that our day is > 0% work and > 0% leisure, an extra four hours a day will add more than 0 hours of leisure.

b) If all med students get more studying done, it's far from obvious that the net result is a bad one. I assume that there is some value to med students' knowledge of medicine [okay, for anatomy courses this might not hold]. If, say, Apple workers work 50% more, then we stand to get better and faster Macs]

Comment author: TraderJoe 03 October 2012 10:13:18AM 4 points [-]

What might convince me that Modafinil is a bad thing would be if a lot of people actively disliked the time they spent working. I personally assume most people roughly like or are neutral towards their jobs and mainly want to work shorter hours because it gives them more time for things outside of work, but I'm almost certainly generalizing from the example of me. If Yvain had made this argument I would understand more about where he was coming from and why.

Comment author: Viliam_Bur 03 October 2012 11:19:25AM *  2 points [-]

In some professions saying that you "love you work" is a signal of a good employee. So I would expect some dishonesty in self-reporting.

How could we ask the question to reduce this signalling? I imagine only silly questions like this:

Imagine that for some external reasons your workplace must be closed for two weeks. During those two weeks you will receive your normal salary, and those two weeks will not be taken from your holidays. How does this message make you feel?
a) awesome!
b) mildly happy
c) neutral
d) mildly sad
e) depressed

On the second thought, is this question really silly, or does it show our true preferences? And the silliness is merely a reflection of dissonance between our professed values and real values.

Comment author: TraderJoe 03 October 2012 11:29:45AM 6 points [-]

This doesn't quite answer the question. I would be very happy if my place of work were closed and I could do fun things for two weeks. My objection to working isn't that work is unpleasant; it's that there's a high opportunity cost [all the fun people I could hang out with, the great books I could read, etc]. A better question is "imagine you are asked for your employer to take part in an experiment where you instead have your brain turned off. Your body ages by eight hours, but your brain experiences it as "you step into the office, then step out".

It retains the silliness but solves the opportunity cost problem.

Comment author: Viliam_Bur 03 October 2012 07:47:41PM 1 point [-]

You are right about the opportunity costs. The work is actually not bad -- it's the idea of all the things I could have done in the same time that's driving me crazy.

Your question is better (although it does not contain learning during the job, which is important too).

Comment author: TraderJoe 03 October 2012 10:14:21AM *  1 point [-]

[comment deleted]

Comment author: gwern 03 October 2012 04:40:59PM 3 points [-]

Doctors don't take courses in modafinil, or anything, so I'm not sure what you expect them to base their advice on besides the FDA prescribing guides like http://www.erowid.org/smarts/modafinil/modafinil_provigil_prescribing_info1.pdf

Comment author: atorm 04 October 2012 05:10:33AM 1 point [-]

A pharmacist might be a better bet.

Comment author: Yvain 02 October 2012 02:16:33AM *  12 points [-]

Yvain has seen the misery of Haiti and India firsthand; but it seems only with his eyes.

I very specifically mentioned potential First World outlays to Third World countries as exceptions to my point. For example, I said:

There may be useful indirect actions, like advancing technology, increasing tax revenue that can be spent on useful absolute goods, and increasing the amount that flows as charity to the Third World (emphasis added)

Other than that, my entire argument was based on the "happiness follows economic growth up to a certain point, then stops" argument that has been mentioned here so many times before. That means a parable talking about how great certain interventions could be for the Third World is irrelevant; the post was very specifically and explicitly aimed at the First.

(I also think the benefits from lack of iodine deficiency are a lot less siphon-away-able)

The "60% serious" number may indeed be too high, though. I meant it to signal that I thought the argument was correct in all of its main points, but probably falls apart because the increase in productivity would produce very small benefits rather than no benefits, and "very small benefits" multiplied by the entire economy still end out pretty huge, especially if some of them end out in the Third World through the indirect methods I mentioned earlier.

Comment author: Vaniver 02 October 2012 03:01:13AM *  4 points [-]

I very specifically mentioned potential First World outlays to Third World countries as exceptions to my point:

The other organ I was looking for was not the heart but the head. Why are some people poor, and others rich? We run on our golden treadmills faster and longer, and what do we get out of it? Something, it would seem; the indigent in America do not eat mud to feel something in their belly.

Other than that, my entire argument was based on the "happiness follows economic growth up to a certain point, then stops" argument that has been mentioned here so many times before

Happiness! A life's value is not denominated in smiles. How does satisfaction relate to economic growth?

(I also think the benefits from lack of iodine deficiency are a lot less siphon-away-able)

One day, a stranger came to the village. He carried with him a curious dried herb and sack of seed. The herb's leaves, he claimed, could be brewed into a soporific tea. Those that took it he would sleep twelve hours a day, instead of eight.

The elders again convened to consider the stranger's tea. If one man took it, that man would get less done- but if all men took it, then one man's loss would be balanced by the other's. Many in the village were fond of their dreams, they said to each other, and so the weed seemed a boon.

When they brought the tea before the village, many nodded at the wisdom of the elders, but one farmer, so poor he had to pull his plow himself, balked. "If you shorten my day," he said with despair, "then I must shorten my fields, for there are only so many days in the year one can plow, and my poor feet can only move so quickly."

A woman spoke next. "Sixteen hours of spinning buys me four fish; enough to feed myself and my three children. If I can only spin for twelve hours, then I will only get enough cloth for three fish- and which of my children would you have me not feed?"

The elders did not answer, but then one of the elder's sons spoke. "I already pay for candles to make my day longer," he said, "as the sun does not give me as many hours to read as I would like. If you shorten my day, then you shrink how large my mind may grow, for there are more books out there than a lifetime of reading, and yet I would read as many as I can."

A singer was next, her mellifluous voice carrying easily across the village square. "I enjoy my dreams as much as the next woman, but I enjoy the sound of my voice more." There were chuckles as she admitted to one of the village's many jokes. "To only sing for twelve hours a day would make me and my listeners that much poorer."

Others moved to speak, but the elders were elders because they could see which way the wind blew. "We will run this stranger and his poison weed out of our village!" they declared, and the stranger was soon running towards the woods, watched by angry eyes.

I meant it to signal that I thought the argument was correct in all of its main points, but probably falls apart because the increase in productivity would produce very small benefits rather than no benefits, and "very small benefits" multiplied by the entire economy still end out pretty huge

By 60% serious you mean you expect it is wrong? That is not how I treat my seriousness.

Comment author: [deleted] 03 October 2012 01:14:41AM *  1 point [-]

Happiness! A life's value is not denominated in smiles.

It's not denominated in dollars either, and if I had to pick one word to stand for humans' terminal values it would be much ‘closer’ to “happiness” than to “economy”.

Comment author: shminux 01 October 2012 11:47:42PM 9 points [-]

if modafinil were legal, it would become expected, and everything would be harder to match the increased ability of humans to be productive.

I tend to agree that this is a silly argument, especially given that it can be applied to coffee as much as to modafinil, so we better ban coffee, lest those allergic to it be at a disadvantage.

Comment author: MixedNuts 02 October 2012 10:19:54AM 5 points [-]

Yvain says in his posts' comments that coffee doesn't work, as tolerance builds up. This seems disputed.

But why not ban coffee? Because, like alcohol, it's now too ingrained in our culture. But if it wasn't - preventing headaches, irritability, concentration troubles, and the expectation that everyone can pull all-nighters? Fuck yes.

Comment author: Jayson_Virissimo 02 October 2012 01:38:10PM *  3 points [-]

So, the world would be a better place if people like me (who drink butter-coffee everyday) had to give up their favorite health food or risk jail time? Consider me skeptical.

Comment author: gwern 02 October 2012 06:33:47PM 1 point [-]
Comment author: Pfft 02 October 2012 02:54:37AM 7 points [-]

Or indeed to any technology. You may think you are better off using a combine harvester instead of a sickle, but actually it just shifts the expectation of how much grain you need to produce.

Comment author: evand 02 October 2012 12:55:10AM 7 points [-]

It bothers me that no one is applying a reversal test here. The paper even calls out intelligence augmentation as the prime example!

I'm inclined to trust Bostrom's well thought out paper on the matter, but I'd be curious to hear opposing views.

Comment author: Yvain 02 October 2012 07:13:16AM *  5 points [-]

I might endorse a certain very specific reversal test.

If I could choose between the current world except that freethinkers are at a significant disadvantage relative to everyone else, versus a world with a four hour workday but we all had to sleep four hours more per night so we still had the same amount of free time, plus our economy was at the same level as in the 1990s...

...then actually I would choose the current world, because the four hours more sleep per night would also apply on the weekends and so totally disrupt the balance, which I hadn't thought of at all in the original post. So never mind.

Comment author: Gabriel 02 October 2012 10:54:41AM 5 points [-]

This assumption that all the change in the amount of waking hours would go towards increasing (or decreasing) labour time is suspect. I mean, why couldn't people keep the current ratio, work 50-hour workweeks and get 14 additional hours of leisure time per week? The rich get better yachts and everybody has more fun.

Comment author: [deleted] 02 October 2012 03:55:03AM *  13 points [-]

I disapprove of this thread on the principle that people should be able to idly speculate on their own blog without being harangued elsewhere.

I disapprove of your use of parables to smuggle in your economic hypotheses, rather than arguing for them competently and clearly.

I disapprove of your commentary, because I agree with wedrifid here:

(Claiming to have) mind read negative beliefs and motives in others then declaring them publicly tends to be frowned upon. Certainly it is frowned upon me.

Comment author: palladias 02 October 2012 03:22:21PM 7 points [-]

I disapprove of this thread on the principle that people should be able to idly speculate on their own blog without being harangued elsewhere.

Is this meant to apply just to LessWrongers? Because it seems kosher to discuss and critique blog posts generally in open threads.

Comment author: Yvain 02 October 2012 10:24:12PM 9 points [-]

On second thought, you make a good point. The problem wasn't Vaniver bringing it up, the problem was me not putting clear muflax-like epistemic state warnings on my blog.

Comment author: thomblake 02 October 2012 03:39:30PM 5 points [-]

I disapprove of this thread on the principle that people should be able to idly speculate on their own blog without being harangued elsewhere.

I disagree with your disapproval. While perhaps one wouldn't want to be "harangued", it is entirely appropriate to comment on publicly-available texts, and the open thread here is a perfectly acceptable place to do so.

Comment author: [deleted] 02 October 2012 03:59:34PM 2 points [-]

The emphasis (and hence the use of the word "harangued" over neutral variants like "discussed" or "criticized") was on the inappropriateness of Vaniver's repeated emotional appeals and status attacks against Yvain.

Forum switching is a well-known trolling technique that dates back to Usenet, and indeed possibly further.

Comment author: chaosmosis 03 October 2012 11:02:15PM 1 point [-]

It would have been legit if there was a link posted to the blog.

Comment author: Yvain 02 October 2012 07:17:15AM *  6 points [-]

I disapprove of this thread on the principle that people should be able to idly speculate on their own blog without being harangued elsewhere.

Thank you :)

EDIT: Actually, see here

Comment author: Vaniver 02 October 2012 04:27:08AM 6 points [-]

I disapprove of your use of parables to smuggle in your economic hypotheses, rather than arguing for them competently and clearly.

Very well.

First, people prefer longer lives to shorter ones.

Second, just as it is difficult to think of goods that are only absolute, it is difficult to think of goods that are only positional. The used car provides $4,500 in transportation value; the Ferrari provides $50,000 in transportation value.

Third, many professions create durable value and large positive externalities. 25% more lawyering or 25% more derivative trading may not have obvious positive benefits, but 25% more programming or 25% more engineering or 25% more science obviously do. Crunch time may be 20 hours a day instead of 16, and so the programmers have just as little time to themselves, but the product will actually be superior, which seems like a Pareto gain.

Fourth, phase changes have effects that are difficult to anticipate. A world that moved at startup speed- where more people were massively productive and focused- could be far more glorious, delightful, and pleasant than our world. It is difficult to imagine just how miserable conditions were when society was liquid, rather than a gas; similarly, it is difficult for a gas to imagine the joys of being a plasma.

I disapprove of your commentary

I agree it was insufficiently clear. I meant that Yvain has seen societies that are both liquid and gas, and I do not see how someone who grasped the difference between those phases could write a post like his.

Comment author: Gabriel 02 October 2012 10:39:52AM *  6 points [-]

I agree it was insufficiently clear. I meant that Yvain has seen societies that are both liquid and gas, and I do not see how someone who grasped the difference between those phases could write a post like his.

You are overestimating the value of reasoning by metaphor and the extent to which your metaphors are shared by others.

When I take a pot of water and heat it, it becomes gas. If I seal the pot and keep heating, it won't become plasma. It will blow up in my face. See, a metaphor!

Comment author: Vaniver 02 October 2012 08:10:01PM 1 point [-]

You are overestimating the value of reasoning by metaphor and the extent to which your metaphors are shared by others.

It would seem so, and I will try to adjust my style from here on out. Writing was easier when most were a step or two removed from the farm.

Comment author: CronoDAS 02 October 2012 09:05:17AM 5 points [-]

I agree it was insufficiently clear. I meant that Yvain has seen societies that are both liquid and gas, and I do not see how someone who grasped the difference between those phases could write a post like his.

I don't think I understand the metaphor here.

Comment author: Vaniver 02 October 2012 08:09:00PM *  3 points [-]

Haiti is miserably poorer than America, in large part because of its people and its institutions. Not just in the sense of physical goods, but in most of the things that make life grand, and the things that make life annoying.

Similarly, we are poorer than the future will be- again, because of people and institutions. (Technology- as in, knowledge about reality and devices that make clever use of that knowledge- is the result of people and institutions.)

Importantly, this is not just in the sense of physical goods. It is one thing to compare a McMansion to a comfortably sized home; it is another to compare the sort of life lived by someone who lives in a world where they can buy a customized continent to someone who lives in a world where they can buy a McMansion.

And so, in light of those changes, to look at a spark that could ionize our gas and say "but we'll just be running in circles faster!" seems to miss the point. No, when every manager is a clear-headed executive, commercial organizations will be better run and more pleasant to deal with, and the sorts of things we can do will go from great to fantastic. What does it matter that the yachts will be longer and the quays more crowded with them?

Comment author: CronoDAS 03 October 2012 01:34:05AM 2 points [-]

Thank you.

Comment author: [deleted] 06 October 2012 04:35:20PM 2 points [-]

I have seen people mention two algorithms to decide whether to upvote or downvote a comment: 1) upvote/downvote it if you'd like to see more/fewer comments like that, and 2) assign it a karma score you think it deserves, look at its current karma, and upvote/downvote it if the former is above/below the latter. I've recently thought about a compromise: 3) assign it a karma score you think it deserves, multiply its current karma by a, and upvote/downvote it if the former is above/below the latter. Note that 3) reduces to 1) as a approaches 0 and to 2) as a approaches 1. (I'm using a = 0.5.)

Does this have any obvious drawback that neither 1) nor 2) has?

Comment author: [deleted] 05 October 2012 03:44:57PM *  2 points [-]

Recent arXiv pre-prints

arXiv is a well-known preprint server for mathematics, computer science, physics, etc. In exchange for weakening the demands of peer review, it encourages people to share articles at a much faster pace than would be possible otherwise. I've been a long-time subscriber of their RSS feed, which helps me keep abreast of developments in my field. On a typical day, between 100~150 new preprints are submitted, of which I usually find five or six "interesting."

So in accordance with this I have added this week an additional "interesting" filter for things that may be of interest to LW. Right now, that seems to mean things about practical Bayesian statistics.

Disclaimer: while I've skimmed through the papers listed below, I make no guarantee that they are either correct or interesting. I'm not a domain expert in statistics.

Kolyan Ray, Bayesian inverse problems with non-conjugate priors

Inverse problems is an important field (i.e., it's my field) that studies, for example, under what conditions a measurement device is able to function, and how well it functions. Classically the theory has dealt solely with idealized perfect measurements in the absence of error, but since about the 80's there has been some work done in combining inverse problems with Bayesian updating. Here they study a really general model (that covers e.g., CT imaging) in the presence of white noise. It's somewhat popular these days to study how the posterior "collapses" in either the high-data or low-noise limit (where the Bayesian result should tend to the classical one), and so this paper studies the model in the high-data limit.

Gergely Székely, What properties of numbers are needed to model accelerated observers in relativity?

Admittedly this preprint strains my internal definition of "LW-interest," but it was too cute to pass up. They construct a first-order logical theory of special relativity and ask what the scalar quantities of this theory form a model of. Typically everyone assumes that the real numbers are the "correct" model of physical quantities, but there's no a priori reason for this to be true, see here. The preprint claims that in more than three dimensions, FOL + SR can model any ordered field. If in addition there exist accelerated observers, a real closed field is required. The most interesting part is that if there is a uniformly accelerated observer, there is no set of first-order axioms characterizing the possible fields of scalars.

Michel Bauer, Denis Bernard, Tristan Benoist, Iterated Stochastic Measurements

The interesting thing about this paper is that it flags down several references describing the analogy between quantum mechanics and Bayesian updating. As the title suggests, they study some discrete- and continuous-time models of a random system that can be probed iteratively. Since QM prevents quantum systems from being completely measured, they work with a model probe that only partially measures the system. After probing the system over and over again, Bayesian updating on the probe data yields more and more complete information, just as one would expect.

Sergios Agapiou, Andrew M. Stuart, Yuan-Xiang Zhang, Bayesian Posterior Contraction Rates for Linear Severely Ill-posed Inverse Problems

This is another Bayesian inverse problems paper, this time dealing with the low-noise limit. The "severely ill-posed inverse problems" of the title covers practical problems like deconvolution and optical tomography. They show posterior consistency for gaussian priors. They also mention a formal analogy between Bayesian updating and Tikhonov regularization, which is the classical method for dealing with this class of inverse problems.

Comment author: beoShaffer 05 October 2012 04:41:51AM *  2 points [-]

During a recent real life encounter I saw something that I am almost certain is a statistical fallacy, and I am trying to find the formal name for it. As the incident involved a political topic I am filling the serial numbers off. Someone pointed out that in population P, a rather nonstandard group, subgroups a and b suffered from (high number)% frequency of untimely death and presented this as evidence that a and b were being discriminated against, without provided the base rate for population P/ the death toll for non a, non b, members of P. Can anyone help me out here?

edited for grammar/clarity

Comment author: Kindly 05 October 2012 05:01:10AM 1 point [-]

The base rate fallacy seems like an appropriate name, but in practice it seems like that's reserved specifically for confusing Pr[A|B] with Pr[B|A] in the way outlined in the Wikipedia article.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 05 October 2012 03:58:38AM 2 points [-]
Comment author: Jabberslythe 04 October 2012 09:34:16PM 2 points [-]

I've been looking for a site that offers calibration tests from a farily large bank of questions, but I haven't really been able to find any. I found some resources from the last place this was discussed, but none of the sites had very many questions and most of the questions were very US centric.

Does anyone know of anything else?

Comment author: gwern 03 October 2012 10:47:48PM *  2 points [-]

So I was musing about 'one man's modus tollens is another man's modus ponens', and about how you would put that in probabilistic terms.

It seems to be applicable to when you have a probability for P(A v B), update on positive evidence to P(A' v B'), but instead of A<A' and B<B' as one might naively expect, now it's actually either A<A' and B>B' (or same thing, A>A' and B<B').

I'm just wondering what additional stuff you need to get that; nothing mentally pops out for me as relevant.

Comment author: Oscar_Cunningham 04 October 2012 02:09:27PM *  6 points [-]

The way I see it is this: We consider A likely, but B unlikely. Say P(A)=1-a and P(B)=b, where a and b are small. A and B are currently independent. Then we observe that A implies B (i.e. "¬A v B"). We get probabilities

P(A|A=>B) = P(A=>B|A)P(A)/P(A=>B) = P(B)P(A)/[P(B)P(A)+P(B)P(¬A)+P(¬B)P(¬A)] = [b-ab]/[b+a-ab] or approximately P(A|A=>B) = b/[a+b]

P(B|A=>B) = P(A=>B|B)P(B)/P(A=>B) = 1.P(B)/[P(B)P(A)+P(B)P(¬A)+P(¬B)P(¬A)] = b/[b+a-ab] or approximately P(B|A=>B) = b/[a+b].

So (to first order) we have that observing "A implies B" gives a probability of b/[a+b] for both A and B. So if we're more sure that A is true than that B is false we have a<b so b/[a+b] > 0.5; both A and B are likely (Modus Ponens). But if we're more sure that B is false than that A is true we have b<a so b/[a+b] < 0.5; both A and B are unlikely (Modus Tollens).

To summarise: "one man's modus tollens is another man's modus ponens" occurs when two beliefs that we strongly believe come into conflict. In this situation our final beliefs depend on our relative confidences in our two beliefs. We keep the one we are more confident in, and discard the one we are less confident in. This means that two people who both strongly held those two beliefs could suddenly find themselves in disagreement; this happens when one of them thought that a<b and the other one thought that b<a.

EDIT: Note that I used A likely and B unlikely because the standard phrasing of MP is A and A=>B together give B. If we had taken ¬A instead of A we would have the situation where we have two unlikely beliefs, and we suddenly learn that one or the other has to be true. Similarly, if we had had ¬B instead of B we would have had the situation where we have two stong beliefs, and we suddenly learn that they conflict with each other. All these situations are equivalent.

Comment author: [deleted] 03 October 2012 08:25:34PM 2 points [-]

A query about The Dark Knight on Marginal Revolution originally from Brad Allen:

I was watching the Dark Knight on a bus yesterday evening (I’m not sure how familiar you are with the movie) – there was a scene that I thought was pretty interesting to think through, and was curious how you might go about it.

There is a scene where the Joker kills a mob boss, and then gives his 3 subordinates one half broken pool cue – and basically tells them that to live, the other two have to die. You don’t see what happens, but what do you think happens? Is it advantageous to pick up the pool cue, or would that signal the other two to attack you first? Would you try to back out and let the other two fight? Or would that incent them to come after you? OR does everyone do nothing, until a last second dash like bicycle sprints?

Obviously, I’ve had fun thinking about this. Do you have any guesses?

Comment author: chaosmosis 03 October 2012 10:48:33PM *  4 points [-]

I think the best move would be to back off. They'd be unsure whether to pursue you or to defend themselves against the person closest to them. Mutual uncertainty on their part means they'll attack each other first, instead of pursuing you. Whoever won would get the pool stick, but they'd also be tired and you'd have an advantage. You also would have had the opportunity to observe their fighting style.

Needless to say in real life I would just die.

Comment author: gwern 03 October 2012 10:43:01PM *  3 points [-]
Comment author: apotheon 04 October 2012 02:30:52PM 1 point [-]

It depends on your ability to come up with an alternate force-multiplier to the offered weapon to establish some kind of tactical superiority. If you quickly come up with one, or are at least confident of your ability to do so, the smart move is to induce the others to deal with each other first, then attack the winner from a position of strength after he has been weakened by the initial exchange with his first opponent. Otherwise, pick up the offered weapon; then the ideal strategy is still probably to see if you can get the other two to attack each other before coming after you, perhaps acting as though your only reason for picking up the weapon is to be a "coward" who wishes to avoid a fight altogether -- because, of course, the other two are unlikely to go after the more dangerous opponent first, even though collaborating to eliminate the primary threat before attempting to finish off a (hopefully) weakened remaining foe is probably the winning strategy for them.

Of course, the real smart move, if you can get everyone in on it, might be to ensure that all three of you collaborate in a surprise attack on the Joker after giving him the impression he's safe by pretending to initially target each other. That's pretty damned unlikely to happen, though, given the level of trust most likely needed to achieve that kind of alliance without cluing in the Joker and getting yourself killed by him instead of the other two.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 04 October 2012 04:15:13PM 1 point [-]

In general, it is a smart move to precommit to mutual support against opponents attempting to sow dissension. Of course, how effective this is depends on how reliably individuals in the group can precommit and how effectively they can signal reliable precommitment. (Also, insert obligatory UDT reference here.)

Comment author: Blackened 02 October 2012 09:20:58PM 2 points [-]

I'm writing my CV now and was wondering whether I should indeed be "as confident as possible" (which basically means, according to some people, that I'm limited to sentences that don't even contain words like "but", "mostly", "although" etc.). Overconfidence is a killer of rationality, and displaying it might signal that you're irrational. I would personally trust much more someone who actively doubts in many things he says, rather than someone who is always confident. However, some people say the opposite.

I was wondering how should I approach my CV? Would it attract more rational employers if it's more self-skeptical? I'm not going to take it to a degree where it's as self-skeptical as I usually get when I give my honest advice on something (pointing out as many assumptions and dependencies on sources of information as possible, and sounding like nobody else I know, based on a very quick search). But still wondering whether this would get me a more irrational employer, and would some of you actually trust more someone who sounds confident.

Comment author: Larks 03 October 2012 09:41:10AM 6 points [-]

Yes you should be as confident as possible.

In interview, you can admit that you used to have flaws, which you identified and corrected, but this is as close as you can get.

Comment author: Blackened 03 October 2012 10:11:28AM 3 points [-]

Why do you think so? I would personally like more people who are actively talking about their good and bad sides, although I'm not sure if I'd do that in an interview, because it might mean they don't know what appears to be the most effective strategy.

Comment author: Epiphany 04 October 2012 07:08:52AM 3 points [-]

I don't know man, but that weird habit of humans drives me up a friggin wall.

Comment author: [deleted] 04 October 2012 01:47:53PM *  2 points [-]

As a first approximation, assume everyone you're dealing with is default-level irrational and incapable of recognizing or appreciating rationality. This is true > 98% of the time.

Also be aware that even a rationalist in a hiring situation might just interpret your "self skepticism" as attempted tribal-affilation signalling. They are hiring, not looking for beer buddies. Very different thought process.

Comment author: Epiphany 04 October 2012 07:07:28AM *  2 points [-]

I've heard that cover letters are not very popular these days, some people are doing away with them and viewing them as just another thing that can get you rejected.

Before you put a lot of effort into this, you might want to check around and see if anyone even wants cover letters anymore. I know at least one significant company that does not even accept them.

Comment author: DanielLC 02 October 2012 06:20:17AM 2 points [-]

Why wasn't slavery outlawed quickly after the US started? I would expect the free non-slaveholders would vote against slavery, since they wouldn't want to compete with slaves, and they'd outnumber the slaveholders.

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 03 October 2012 02:06:20PM 5 points [-]

I don't know anything about the politics of slavery in the US at the time, but in general, a relevant question is: how strongly did the non-slaveholders desire slavery to be outlawed, as compared to their desires with regard to other issues?

In general, in politics it's quite common that the majority of the populace has a moderate preference to do X, a much smaller fraction of the populace has a very strong preference to not do X, and the desires of the minority win out. For the majority, the issue might not be important enough that they'd change their vote because of it, especially if the politician in question supports other issues who the people feel are more important. For the minority, however, the issue may be important enough to be the deciding factor in whom they vote. So the politican will maximize their votes by doing what the minority wants with regard to issue X, and what the majority wants with regard to everything else. At the same time, if the minority and majority vote for different politicians, then it's beneficial for the elected politicians to barter votes, so that the majority "buys" the minority's support for laws that they might not be able to pass otherwise, in exchange for giving the minority what they want on an issue that feels less important for the majority.

Of course, all of this presumes that the voters act "rationally", and give their support to the candidates who most accurately match the desires of the voters. Pretty much everything that we know about voter behavior says that this isn't the case. (Rationally was in scare quotes because, given how little influence a single vote actually has on an election, not bothering to figure out what your candidate actually does may in fact be the most rational use of your time.)

Comment author: beoShaffer 03 October 2012 07:14:35PM *  1 point [-]

On a somewhat related note, non-slaveholders often bought goods that involved slave labor at some point in the process of their production. It's quite possible that they at least thought that freeing the slaves would raise the cost of their tobacco, clothes ect. edited to add This is a bit more speculative, but I suspect that labor was significaly non-fungibal, and in particular that Northerner's didn't consider Southern agricultural jobs to be closely tied to their own labor market.

Comment author: evand 02 October 2012 05:35:40PM 4 points [-]

Why not also vote to prohibit holding capital? People get rich by owning capital, and it's hard to compete with them if you don't. What's the difference?

I think you're conflating your ethical views on slavery with what you wish other people would decide for consequential reasons.

Comment author: Larks 03 October 2012 09:42:29AM *  2 points [-]

People get rich by owning capital, and it's hard to compete with them if you don't. What's the difference?

Workers compete with other workers, not capitalists. Worker wages are positively associated with the level of capital accumulation in society.

In the slavery example, free workers compete with slaves, not slave owners.

Comment author: taelor 02 October 2012 06:19:39PM 2 points [-]

For one thing, one of the main groups suporting seperating from Great Britain (especially in the southern colonies) were slaveholders who were scared that the British were going to outlaw slavery (something that they had threatened to do in response to the revolution).

Comment author: TimS 04 October 2012 04:19:48PM 1 point [-]

In addition to the other points made in response to your question, a national law abolishing slavery would have needed to pass the US Senate, where each state got two votes, regardless of population. By the time abolition was something that might plausibly have passed the popular vote, the Southern states had formed a unified bloc on the issue. Admission of new states into the Union was explicitly evaluated on the basis of the balance of the Senate until this principle came into too much conflict with the principle of popular sovereignty.

Comment author: thomblake 03 October 2012 05:58:27PM 1 point [-]

As I understand it, people suspected something like the Civil War would happen if they tried that.

A lot of compromises were made to forge a single country out of this mess.

Comment author: [deleted] 01 October 2012 06:54:43PM 3 points [-]

What is the most effective chain of thoughts that a theist can make, that will make him realise that there is no God? Efficiency could be measured in the number of thought steps. I'm especially interested in references to articles that considers question.

Comment author: wedrifid 02 October 2012 05:43:45AM 13 points [-]

What is the most effective chain of thoughts that a theist can make, that will make him realise that there is no God?

"People not in my tribe are sexy and cool. I want to be like and/or mate with those people. I believe I have a sufficient chance of successfully joining and gaining status within the tribe with sexy and cool people in it. I will now change my signalling beliefs."

Comment author: [deleted] 03 October 2012 01:17:45AM 2 points [-]

I'm pretty sure that at least some theists are sincere, rather than using belief-as-attire.

Comment author: wedrifid 03 October 2012 04:12:41AM 4 points [-]

I'm pretty sure that at least some theists are sincere

Most people are usually sincere and it remains the case that the most significant influence on most people's core ideological beliefs are social factors. That's how people work, for better or worse.

Comment author: drethelin 03 October 2012 05:47:35AM 3 points [-]

We can carry belief-as-attire slightly further and suggest that the totally sincere and unfaked embarrassment someone might feel about being caught pantsless in public is still governed by social factors. Your belief can functionally be attire without you recognizing it, much in the same way that someone in a suit just seems "well-dressed" even though they're not better dressed in an objective sense than say, someone in a traditional robe or animal skins.

Comment author: palladias 02 October 2012 03:26:12PM 2 points [-]

This doesn't raise the sanity waterline at all. Unless the person is part of a very dangerous Jim Jones style of religion, what's the point?

Comment author: wedrifid 02 October 2012 03:47:55PM *  2 points [-]

This doesn't raise the sanity waterline at all.

Yes it does. I think you need to read it again a couple of times and maybe a few OvercomingBias posts.

Unless the person is part of a very dangerous Jim Jones style of religion, what's the point?

It makes no difference to the point whether the religion is dangerous, admirable or even the literally correct and the path to eternal bliss. Thoughts about tribal affiliations typically matter more than abstract reasoning when it comes to this kind of belief.

Comment author: palladias 02 October 2012 04:35:22PM 3 points [-]

Maybe I misunderstood. It sounded like you were suggesting that theists be baited with a honeypot (mate or group) that they'd like to be attractive to. The pressure to be liked would cause them to abandon their beliefs. I'm not saying this can't work, but it's a transformational pressure that works equally well in both directions. The person isn't better informed at the end of it, they're just trying to fit in with a group that happens to be more accurate.

(If atheism highly correlated with sexiness, maybe this would pull more people out of religion than in, but, in fact, religions are better at being organized into tribes with status anyway)

But, I think, given your response, that I've misread you. Can you correct me?

Comment author: drethelin 01 October 2012 07:50:41PM 4 points [-]

I think a chain of feelings would be much more useful. As they say, you can't reason someone out of a belief they didn't reason themselves into.

Comment author: RichardKennaway 02 October 2012 08:15:50AM 3 points [-]

Effectiveness should be measured by results. So you would have to look at deconversion stories.

The problem of evil witnessed on a personal and intense level has done it for some. Historical scholarship on the origins of their religion has done it for others. For others again, materialist science leaving ever-shrinking gaps for God to be in.

Comment author: David_Gerard 01 October 2012 05:58:21AM *  2 points [-]

Dr Doug works through all the numbers for the UK National Lottery: Mistaken gambling, The secret thing, The Lottery Thing. (And, before: Making a hash of it, Making the future.)

Comment author: CronoDAS 01 October 2012 08:02:16AM *  1 point [-]

Noah Smith wrote up a humorous piece about the different kinds of economics blog trolls. Where does Robin Hanson fit in?

Comment author: Gabriel 02 October 2012 07:20:05PM 4 points [-]

Funny pictures. Other than that, it looks like a viable case study for Yvain's meditation on superweapons and bingo.

Comment author: Matt_Simpson 01 October 2012 03:33:44PM *  1 point [-]

I think he's more of a legendary monster than a species of any ordinary troll, though he probably fits best as one of the scientists.

Comment author: CronoDAS 03 October 2012 01:58:53AM *  1 point [-]

Actually, these seem to be only macroeconomics blog trolls. Robin Hanson doesn't talk about present-day macroeconomic issues very much, so he's probably not any of them.

Comment author: Epiphany 04 October 2012 07:39:31PM *  1 point [-]

I don't see a Myers-Briggs personality survey anywhere on LessWrong but I would like to make one. I also have predictions, and I think it would be neat to see if I'm correct (predictions below in an unedited comment.)

I am aware that the Myers-Briggs is considered to have inaccuracies - for instance, I've scored different types at different times. I do not feel that this makes it useless but that it reflects the fact that your personality can change due to things like (for me) switching from doing a lot of art and people work (feeler type) to doing more intellectually rigorous activities (thinker type).

Should I make a new post for that? Post a poll in the open threads over and over until I get 100 responses? Ask Yvain to include it on the next survey? How should I do this?

Comment author: Epiphany 04 October 2012 09:27:35PM *  3 points [-]

Proposed Poll:

What is your last Myers-Briggs personality type score:

  • INTJ
  • INTP
  • ENTJ
  • ENTP
  • INFP
  • INFJ
  • ENFJ
  • ENFP
  • ISTJ
  • ISTP
  • ESTJ
  • ESTP
  • ISFJ
  • ISFP
  • ESFJ
  • ESFP

These questions are interesting because there are some connections with personal development:

Regarding I/E (introversion / extroversion), have you gotten a score near the border between them, or gotten a different I/E result when taking the test multiple times?

  • I got results near the border (maybe the same result maybe different).
  • I got two very different results (not near the border, not the same result).
  • None of the above.

(Etc. for the other three dimensions)

Comment author: Epiphany 04 October 2012 07:40:49PM 3 points [-]

Personality Type Predictions:

The vast majority are introverts, ballpark 90% introverts.

Most common type: INTJ

NT types > 75% of the population

NF types - a handful or none (possibly more than the next type, possibly less)

ISTJ - a single digit percentage of the LW population

Other guardians and artisans: none or nearly none.

Comment author: Epiphany 30 November 2012 02:04:00AM *  6 points [-]

The survey results are in, so I am updating this:

If you scroll down to "MYERS-BRIGGS" you'll see that there are 436 people in Yvain's selection of results (of greater than 10 people for each type, leaving out a total 3.1% of the survey data). That's what these figures are based on. (The raw data is missing around 10% of the responses due to people wanting anonymity, and the graphic provided to show more detail has some issues so I used Yvain's selection.)

  • Ballpark 90% Introverts: Correct

    371 Introverts (85% of 436)

  • Most common type: INTJ: Correct

    163 INTJs (37% of 436)

  • NT types > 75% of the population: Correct

    371 NTs (85% of 436)

  • NF types - a handful or none (possibly more than ISTJs) : Correct

    51 NFs 436 (12% of 436)

  • ISTJ a single digit percentage of the LW population: Correct

    14 ISTJs (3% of 436)

I wasn't sure exactly how I should interpret the somewhat vague "a handful or none" for NF types, but I see that I used enough numbers to be able to do a literal, mathematical interpretation so I chose that method. I had predicted it was possible that there would be more of them than the ISTJs who I had predicted would be in the single digit percents (implying that 10% or more of them wasn't outside the range) and that there could necessarily be no more than 25% of them because it would contradict the NT prediction, so since they were within the numerical bounds, I interpreted this as correct.

Another interesting thing to note is that each personality type in the top 98% of LW personality types is in the same order as the type list I wrote here. Unfortunately that comment had been previously edited, so whether or not you believe that I did this intentionally will be based on how much you trust me not to lie and what you think the probability is of me having the ability to correctly list the personality types of 98% of the LessWrong population in same order as we'd see on the actual personality test results after having proven to you just now that I can make correct predictions about the Myers-Briggs personality types on LessWrong.

What's really interesting though is that our personality type pattern matches the pattern Mensa discovered when they did a personality type survey, and the pattern that Mensa and LessWrong share is very different from the ordinary personality type statistics. This makes the IQ figures on the yearly surveys more believable.

Comment author: satt 06 October 2012 03:50:41PM 1 point [-]

I like the idea of asking Yvain to add it to the big survey. That's probably the least obtrusive way, and it'd maximize responses, which you'd need for a decent sample size in each of 16 subcategories.

Comment author: [deleted] 12 October 2012 05:19:06AM *  1 point [-]

There is at least one post on LW about undergraduate application essays. Instead of writing a similar post detailing my specific circumstance, I am posting on the Open Thread in search of people who would be interested in talking to me/private messaging me about undergraduate application essays. I imagine that I would benefit from reading some successful and unique essays, perhaps about the subjects we discuss on LW. Since UChicago is my "dream school", I imagine I would also benefit from reading successful application essays for their provocative prompts. It it helps, you can read more about me.

Comment author: chaosmosis 11 October 2012 04:56:01AM 1 point [-]
Comment author: Mitchell_Porter 10 October 2012 08:09:36AM 1 point [-]

I would like advocates of TDT, UDT, etc, to comment on the following scenario.

Suppose I think of a possible world where there is a version of Genghis Khan who thinks of this version of me. Then I imagine Genghis imagining my responses to his possible actions. Finally I imagine him agreeing to not kill everyone in the next country he invades, if I commit to building a thirty-meter golden statue of him, in my world. Then I go and build the statue, feeling like a great humanitarian because I saved some lives in another possible world.

My questions are: Is this crazy? If so, why is it crazy? And, is there an example of similar reasoning that isn't crazy?

Comment author: ArisKatsaris 10 October 2012 10:08:49AM *  2 points [-]

And, is there an example of similar reasoning that isn't crazy?

I think one needs to significantly abstract this example to understand the reasoning at human levels. (EDIT TO ADD: And I also think your usage of the word 'imagine' is confusing because it connotates 'making things up' instead of 'attempt to accurately model in your mind'.)

E.g. Let's say you have made a habit of providing a helping hand to strangers. One day you learn that Genghis Khan, in a different time and a different continent, put an end to his butchering because he saw people helping strangers and suddenly took seriously this idea, and this made him reevaluate e.g. his cynicism towards humanity, and whether brutality truly provides happiness.

In this sense a part of you, a part of your decision process, the kindness-to-strangers part is responsible for stopping Genghis Khan. Other parts of you (your memories, your sense of identity, your personal history) aren't. Nothing "recognizably" belonging strictly to you, but part of you is 'responsible' nonetheless.

--

Or here's a different example, a more scientifictional one. An alien informs the human population that the next day, they'll select at random an adult human to observe secretly for a day from the whole human population. That person will not have to do anything special, just clap their hands once during the day. If they do that the earth will be safe, if they don't clap their hands during the day at all, the earth will be doomed. Next day, three billion people clap their hands, just to be on the safe side. Three billion other people don't -- the chance that they'll be the "one chosen" is only one in six billion afterall, close to nothing.

The aliens choose Alice. Alice happened to not clap. The earth is destroyed. My moral intuition tells me that the three billion people who chose not to clap share equally in the responsibility for the Earth's destruction; Alice who got randomly selected didn't decide anything differently from any of the rest of them and therefore is no more "responsible" than any of them in a timeless sense; since her decision process was identical to those other three billion non-clappers, by my logic and moral intuition Alice shares the responsibilty equally with the other non-clappers, even though causally only she caused the destruction of the earth, and the other 2,999,999 harmed noone.

Likewise if the aliens chose Bob and Bob was a clapper, there's no need to treat Bob as a hero that saved mankind anymore than the other 2,999,999 clappers did. The part that determined the saving of the earth was equally distributed in them; the selection of Bob in particular is random and irrelevant in comparison.

Comment author: Vladimir_Nesov 10 October 2012 09:10:34AM *  1 point [-]

The "probability" of the imagined world is low, so the opportunity cost of this action makes it wrong. If there was a world fitting your description that had significant "probability" (for example, if you deduced that a past random event turning out differently would likely lead to the situation as you describe it), it would be a plausibly correct action to take.

(The unclear point is what contributes to a world's "probability"; presumably, arbitrary stipulations drive it down, so most thought experiments are morally irrelevant.)

Comment author: Kawoomba 09 October 2012 08:26:27AM *  1 point [-]

As LW garners more traffic, it also becomes a larger target for (commercial) spam. The wiki in particular seems to lack some basic protection:

See this very recent wiki spam post.

A possible solution would be to require users who edit the wiki to have, say, 1 karma (if the user databases are synchronized).

Also, just from the "recent wiki edits" and its smörgåsbord of sketchy new user names ("IvanosbevfkwwbBohan"), it seems that the user creation process is in urgent need of a good CAPTCHA, which may also help with the first problem.

Comment author: Viliam_Bur 09 October 2012 08:37:47AM 4 points [-]

I don't know if the spambots are fully automatical or human-aided. If they are fully automatical, we could just add a question "What is Eliezer's surname?" The advantage would be people learning to write it correctly. :P

Comment author: blashimov 08 October 2012 11:20:14PM 1 point [-]
Comment author: [deleted] 07 October 2012 09:38:12PM *  1 point [-]

Old material

Related to: List of Public Drafts on LessWrong

This stuff is obsolete or just plain old, it can still serve as draft material:

Comment author: listic 07 October 2012 09:33:02PM *  1 point [-]

Fiction writing advice

Comment author: Jabberslythe 07 October 2012 07:50:30PM 1 point [-]

Could someone recommend any books on investing that might appeal to a LWer?

Comment author: PECOS-9 07 October 2012 05:43:43PM 1 point [-]

Has anybody been using the brainstorming techniques I posted about a while ago? I'd be interested to hear about your results.

Personally, I haven't been using them much since making that post, so I don't really have anything interesting to share. That's a failure on my part, though, not the techniques.

Comment author: Rain 04 October 2012 03:29:32AM *  1 point [-]

Who here owns weapons? Pick the highest "level" if you match more than one.

Submitting...

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 04 October 2012 12:55:05PM 2 points [-]

I don't own weapons, but if I ever got the time and money to pick up the practice again, I wouldn't mind owning a longsword.

Comment author: drethelin 04 October 2012 10:53:25PM 1 point [-]

I own a bunch of airsoft guns and boffer swords! Also fencing equipment. As far as actual dangerous implements, I have a few knives I mainly use to open things and a retractable baton (a gift from my paranoid father).

My parents, on the other hand, have what amounts to a small armory in their gun locker.

Comment author: beoShaffer 04 October 2012 05:39:15AM 1 point [-]

May I ask why you're asking. Also, I own a two bows and a large number of arrows.

Comment author: Rain 04 October 2012 12:06:58PM 1 point [-]

Because everyone's equipping themselves to win in the intellectual realm, and I was wondering how many were equipping themselves to win in the physical realm.

Comment author: chaosmosis 03 October 2012 10:24:32PM 1 point [-]

I found this interesting. I personally don't think it's a paradox, but I think it's interesting that the logic behind it works.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raven_paradox