Morendil comments on Raising the forecasting waterline (part 2) - Less Wrong

14 Post author: Morendil 12 October 2012 03:56PM

You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.

Comments (22)

You are viewing a single comment's thread. Show more comments above.

Comment author: chaosmosis 12 October 2012 07:31:25PM *  0 points [-]

To use a different example that I feel more comfortable with, let's say we had to evaluate the probability that the current government of China collapses by 2035. Economic trends are going to be a huge factor in this. We can break that down further. Here are some major things that will determine the economic health of China: 1. Demographics, what China does with its aging population and what the economic effects of the one-child policy and lack of females are. 2. Environmental health, the environment is the foundation of the economy. 3. Infrastructure is important.

So, looking at 1, we can say that there's a high probability that China will at least initially attempt to support its aging population. However, the population is so old that I can't see this working for long. I think China will lose lots of money on its elderly people, but then will just let them die (this would have social consequences, those should be put as inputs into a different section of our overall prediction). I also think that China is going to have much of its male population move overseas, and that it's going to start encouraging foreign females to immigrate. These policies won't be very successful because China is awful. Overall, China will still lose lots of money.

Looking at 2, China's environment is trash, and their priority is on short term growth, so this will stay the same for the foreseeable future. Unless China gets some bold new leader who is so charismatic he can keep the people from revolting while their short term growth slows and who implements major environmental reforms, then China is doomed. I don't think that any such leaders exist in China right now. However, another solution would arise if some fantastic new technology allowed China to change the basis of its production system. I don't know what the probability of cheap and widespread nanotech or something similar by 2035 is, but I'm going to assume that it's low and so this also won't happen and so China's environment is in trouble.

Looking at 3, China won't be able to maintain infrastructure as a consequence of 1 and 2. This will aggravate underlying problems. Also, China's already running into problems because other countries in the region are trying to take the cheap industrial production section of the market China used to have. China's been trying to switch towards a more technologically advanced production economy, but their education is subpar. This will get worse during the aging crisis.

China is basically dependent on economic growth to keep its population from revolting, from what I've read.

So I conclude that unless something very important happens with China's leadership or cultural/social practices, the economy of China will collapse by 2035 and China will then disintegrate into a civil war. I'm going to put about a 80% probability estimate on this one. This is what I actually believe, although this is sort of an incomplete description and also it oversimplifies and formalizes a lot of what is just raw intuition in my head.

This example also hopefully makes clear the risks of infinite regression. Stuff is complicated.

Comment author: Morendil 12 October 2012 10:08:06PM *  1 point [-]

So I conclude that unless something very important happens with China's leadership or cultural/social practices, the economy of China will collapse by 2035 and China will then disintegrate into a civil war. I'm going to put about a 80% probability estimate on this one.

The "unless something very important" hedge makes this prediction rather hard to judge: it's vague enough that anyone might confidently predict "something very important happens with China's leadership or cultural/social practices between now and 2035", because something is bound to happen that arguably falls under this specification.

This is kind of a converse rule of thumb to the "prefer status quo", which - I should maybe have said - is valid at fairly short timeframes. Over long enough timeframes, the reverse is true - pretty much everything we can specify is going to change. (Over long enough timeframes, continents will move, mountains will be eroded to sea level, and eventually the planet itself will no longer exist.)

Over a twenty year timeframe, if you phrase your prediction in terms of (say) "the rate of exchange between USD and CNY", there is some chance that one of the currencies will cease to exist, or that the notion of "rate of exchange" will stop making sense.

Comment author: gwern 13 October 2012 12:50:24AM 3 points [-]

there is some chance that one of the currencies will cease to exist

Nitpick: I don't think this is much beyond epsilon. Even if a currency 'ceases to exist', the currency still exists in whatever physical embodiment. There is still an exchange rate from Saddam's dinars to US dollars: it's however many pieces of old paper $1 will buy you on eBay. The exchange rates for currencies that cease to exist can even go up over time (how much would a American Revolution-era shinplaster cost ya?).

Comment author: chaosmosis 13 October 2012 03:40:42AM 1 point [-]

If something important happens, it is not an excuse. My prediction will still have been wrong.