Vika comments on Ritual Report 2012: Life, Death, Light, Darkness, and Love. - Less Wrong

20 Post author: Raemon 23 December 2012 06:56PM

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Comment author: SaidAchmiz 24 December 2012 01:12:01AM *  28 points [-]

I considered not posting this comment, because it seems like you guys (and Raemon especially) have put a lot of effort into this, but I do want to sort out my response to this whole thing. Please don't take this as judgment; I'd really like to hear input about whether my reaction is wholly unwarranted, and why or why not.

When I read about this event (and I had a similar reaction to reading about last year's one, too), I get a strong sense of "ick"; a deep and profound feeling of being creeped out. I mean, you're designing and instituting a ritual. Intentionally. Why on earth would you do something like that?

From Yvain's review:

The idea was that since most rationalists and Less Wrongers are atheists for whom the traditional categories of Christmas and Hanukkah don't apply (and, let's face it, way too white for Kwanzaa), we would make our own ritual,

Whyyyyyyyy????

Why not just get together and hang out and... I don't know. Play party games? Talk? Watch movies? Why a ritual?

one centered around rationalist ideals, and use it as a Winter Season Positive Affect Schelling Point the same way all the religions do theirs.

Ok, I thought I knew what a Schelling Point is, but this usage puzzles me a bit. If I'm interpreting it right, though, my question is... why do this?

Is it because some (most?) of the people involved come from religious backgrounds, and miss the holiday rituals that took place in their families?

By the way, what happens if people present don't want to participate in the songs? Is there social pressure? I know I'd feel pretty darn uncomfortable if I was at a gathering and everyone started a collective sing-along.

Separately and unrelatedly, I really feel rather unsettled by the fact that you're using Eliezer's writings as a kind of... I don't know, mass? Sermon? It seems to me like that's taking entirely the wrong message away from all of it... to actually enshrine it as a sacred tradition or ritual of some sort.

I lurk on the OB/LW NYC mailing list, and you guys seem like pretty interesting people (I've been to one or two of the "public" meetups that were like... 1-2 years ago, now?); once in a while I think that maybe I should try and come to some of your meetups on occasion.

Stuff like this pushes me away. That's probably unfortunate, so if someone from the group (or whoever, really) could explain this whole ritual business to me, I would appreciate it.

Comment author: Vika 25 December 2012 03:20:22AM 7 points [-]

As someone who enjoyed the Solstice a great deal, I'd like to throw a data point out there:

  • my family doesn't have a religious or spiritual background of any kind, so I didn't experience rituals as a child. I still enjoy spiritual / religious singing in groups, both in languages I understand and don't, and usually don't take the lyrics seriously. I find most of the value in the feeling of bonding / appreciation.

  • The event felt more playful than solemn, and certainly not authoritative. People seemed to be taking it with a grain of salt, it was like a social experiment of sorts. I felt perfectly comfortable with not singing along for some of the time, and this didn't feel alienating or disengaging.

That said, I think I do understand your revulsion towards rituals, and your view about collectivization of emotional experience is an interesting point that hasn't occurred to me.