Stabilizer comments on Rationality Quotes July 2013 - Less Wrong

5 Post author: Vaniver 02 July 2013 04:21PM

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Comment author: Stabilizer 01 July 2013 10:00:15PM 14 points [-]

On any important topic, we tend to have a dim idea of what we hope to be true, and when an author writes the words we want to read, we tend to fall for it, no matter how shoddy the arguments. Needy readers have an asymptote at illiteracy; if a text doesn't say the one thing they need to read, it might as well be in a foreign language. To be open-minded, you have to recognize, and counteract, your own doxastic hungers.

-Dennett's Law of Needy Readers, Daniel Dennett

Comment author: Stabilizer 01 July 2013 10:02:31PM 26 points [-]

This law according to Dennett is an extension of Schank's Law:

Because people understand by finding in their memories the closest possible match to what they are hearing and use that match as the basis of comprehension, any new idea will be treated as a variant of something the listener has already thought of or heard. Agreement with a new idea means a listener has already had a similar thought and well appreciates that the speaker has recognized his idea. Disagreement means the opposite. Really new ideas are incomprehensible. The good news is that for some people, failure to comprehend is the beginning of understanding. For most, of course, it is the beginning of dismissal.

-Roger Schank

Comment author: RichardKennaway 03 July 2013 02:01:48PM 26 points [-]

any new idea will be treated as a variant of something the listener has already thought of or heard.

From a Bayesian point of view, this is as it must be. People have priors and will assess anything new as a diff (of log-odds) from those priors. Even understanding what you are saying, before considering whether to update towards it, is subject to this. You will always be understood as saying whatever interpretation of your words is the least surprising to your audience.

BTW, this is standard in natural language processing (which is what a lot of Schank's AI work was in). When a sentence is ambiguous, choose the least surprising interpretation, the one containing the least information relative to your current knowledge.

The narrower your audience's priors, the more of a struggle it will be for them to hear you; the narrower your priors, the more you will struggle to hear them.

Having shown how Schank's Law is but an instance of Bayesian inference, I trust you will all find it acceptably unsurprising. :)

Comment author: RolfAndreassen 02 July 2013 01:02:26AM 2 points [-]

[A]ny new idea will be treated as a variant of something the listener has already thought of or heard.

This does raise the question of how anyone learns anything in the first place. :)

Comment author: Desrtopa 02 July 2013 08:30:06PM 1 point [-]

Naturally we go through a period of believing everything we're told when we're kids, and transition to comparing everything we hear to what we've already heard before as we grow up.

(This is an inexact approximation, but in my more cynical moments it strikes me as only very slightly inexact.)

Comment author: TheOtherDave 02 July 2013 03:25:18AM 1 point [-]

Don't underestimate the power of variations.

When shaping behavior in animals, we start with something the animal does naturally and differentially reward natural variations. Evolution of biological systems also involves differential selection of naturally occurring variations on existing systems. So it's certainly possible to get "something new" out of mere "variants of something [that already existed]".

That said, many cognitive systems do also seem capable of insight, which seems to be a completely different kind of process. Dennett and Schank here seem to be dismissing the very possibility of insight, though I assume they are doing so rhetorically.

Comment author: RolfAndreassen 02 July 2013 03:40:34PM 3 points [-]

What has a baby which does not understand speech "heard before", that it can form variations on? Evolution is fine, but you do need a theory of abiogenesis, or in this case aontogenesis - knowledge-from-nothing-ness, in the vernacular.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 02 July 2013 04:39:35PM 6 points [-]

Babies are not clean slates; there exist innate behaviors. We can get into a theoretical discussion of where these behaviors came from if you like, but I don't need a theoretical justification to observe that babies do in fact do things they haven't been taught to do.

Comment author: RolfAndreassen 02 July 2013 07:34:58PM 1 point [-]

Quite so, but this contradicts the original idea that everything is variants on something that has been heard before.

Comment author: shminux 02 July 2013 07:54:22PM 1 point [-]

I interpret "heard before" to include "programmed in your genetics".

Comment author: TheOtherDave 02 July 2013 09:41:36PM 0 points [-]

This.

Comment author: Vaniver 02 July 2013 07:16:35PM *  3 points [-]

While I agree with TheOtherDave's point, I'm not sure it's necessary. A baby doesn't understand new sounds the first time it hears them, but may understand them the hundredth time it's heard them- at which point it does have quite a bit of experience, both of hearing those noises in some situations and not hearing those noises in other situations. Then, once they've learned the general skill of acquiring words, they can correctly learn words quickly, sometimes even after hearing a single use- but that's drawing on their previous experience in learning thousands of words.

Comment author: Estarlio 03 July 2013 11:36:38AM 1 point [-]

Depends how great the variance is. Sounds better if you say that people benefit from having things they're learning related to familiar topics.

Comment author: Viliam_Bur 03 July 2013 10:45:09AM *  0 points [-]

This does raise the question of how anyone learns anything in the first place.

Perhaps most people learn like this: They already have an idea X. Then they hear a very similar idea Y, so they accept it, although they interpret it as X. But once they agreed that Y is their idea, and they hear it repeatedly, they gradualy become aware of Y as something slightly different from X. Thus they made another inferential step.

Perhaps many people are willing to learn only when it does not feel like learning.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 03 July 2013 05:04:27AM -1 points [-]

A less cynical take on this is that people compare what they hear to their previous experience (stored in compressed form) and accept or reject it depending on how well it matches.