EHeller comments on Looking for opinions of people like Nick Bostrom or Anders Sandberg on current cryo techniques - Less Wrong

7 Post author: ChrisHallquist 17 October 2013 08:36PM

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Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 13 January 2014 11:08:26AM 4 points [-]

(2) is the interesting claim, though I'd hardly trust his word on (1) since I didn't see any especially alarming paragraphs in the actual paper referenced. I'm not an expert on that level of neurobiology (Anders Sandberg is, and he's signed up for cryonics), but I am not interested in hearing from anyone who has not demonstrated that they understand that we are talking about doing intelligent cryptography to a vitrified brain and potentially molecule-by-molecule analysis and reasoning, rather than, "Much cold. Very damage. Boo."

Unless someone spells out exactly what is supposed to destroy all cues of a piece of info, by explaining why two cognitively distinct start states end up looking like molecularly identical endstates up to thermal noise, so that we can directly evaluate the technical evidence for ourselves, all they're asking us to do is trust their authoritative summary of their intuitions; and you'd be just plain dumb to trust the authoritative summary of someone who didn't understand the original argument.

I'm trying not to be impatient here, but when I actually went to look at the cited paper and it said nothing at all about damage, it turned out this eminent authority's original argument consisted merely of, "To read off great synaptic info with current big clumsy microscopes and primitive imaging processing, we need big pressures. Look at this paper involving excellent info and big pressures. Cryonicists don't have big pressures. Therefore you're dead QED."

Comment author: EHeller 13 January 2014 05:55:34PM 1 point [-]

(2) is the interesting claim

So say something about it. Your whole comment is an attack on 1, but regardless of his word on whether or not thing slice vitrification is currently the best we can do, we KNOW fracturing happens with current brain preservation techniques. Liquid nitrogen is well below the glass transition, so fracturing is unavoidable.

Why should we expect fracturing/cracking to be 1 to 1?

Comment author: lsparrish 14 January 2014 01:33:09AM 2 points [-]

If you're worried about the effects of cracking, you can pay for ITS. LN2 is only used because it is cheap and relatively low-tech to maintain.

If you ask me it's a silly concern if we're assuming nanorepair or uploading. Cracking is just a surface discontinuity, and it forms at a point in time where the tissue is already in a glassy state where there can't be much mixing of molecules. The microcracks that form in frozen tissue is a much greater concern (but not the only concern with freezing). The fact that vitrified tissue forms large, loud cracks is related to the fact that it does such a good job holding things in place.

Comment author: MathieuRoy 17 January 2014 03:53:31AM *  1 point [-]

What's "ITS"? (Google 'only' hits for "it's") How much more expensive is it? Is it offer by Alcor and CI?

Comment author: lsparrish 17 January 2014 06:50:38PM 2 points [-]
Comment author: MathieuRoy 21 January 2014 12:38:57AM 0 points [-]

Oh ok. Thank you.