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blacktrance comments on Open Thread for January 8 - 16 2014 - Less Wrong
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All the productivity posts on LW that I've read, I found mildly disturbing. They all give a sense of excessive regimentation, as well as giving up enjoyable activity - sacrificing a lot for a single goal (or a few goals). I'm sure it's good for getting work done, but there's more to life than work - there's actually enjoying life, having fun, etc.
I think you're talking about So8res's recent posts, but I think they're exceptional. Most productivity posts are about avoiding spending time web surfing, particularly during time that has been budgeted for work. They do this partly because fragmenting time is bad and partly because there are better ways to have fun.
I find that doing fun things like web surfing makes unenjoyable work more bearable, even though it takes longer. And I do think that most productivity posts are about more than not spending time on the Internet - there's a lot about how to cut down on social time and "fun" so you can be as productive as possible.
If you learn mindfulness, you can learn to detach yourself from an impulsive desire to be entertained constantly, and find flow (and happiness, or at least contentment) in tasks you previously thought were unenjoyable.
Can you or anyone else sketch out some advice on how to achieve this wonderful sounding thing?
To avoid paradox, it is probably better to print those posts and read them from the paper.
But yes, it is a good advice, which probably brings more productivity gains than any other advice.
While the direct advice may be valuable, I don't think it's so common; I'm talking about posts that take it as a given and talk about ways to beat addiction, such as leechblock, pomodoros, and conditioning. Other suggestions, like recording time spent, manually or by browser plugin are about convincing people that they are wasting their time, on the hypothesis that people won't believe the raw claim.
Can you give any concrete examples?
Habitual Productivity
The mechanics of my recent productivity
How I Am Productive (Miscellaneous extreme regimentation)
There are other posts that give me this impression, but I can't find them right now. Also, the "optimal sleep" posts seem to be all about how to sleep as little as possible to be as productive as possible.
Yeah all the obsession with polyphasic sleep seems to be about sacrificing quality of life for quantity of "productive" time.
I agree tentatively. I'm working on maximizing my productivity per hour so that I can spend less hours being productive. Productivity measures are really helpful in that regard, but the temptation to take it too far is problematic.
Downvoted for proposing a poisonous idea. You're implying a dichotomy between being productive and experiencing positive emotions. You can find productive tasks enjoyable. Hanging out with people is an important part of staying healthy, for example, and is generally enjoyable.
Having fun is certainly something that you can do, but that doesn't mean that it is obviously morally optimal.
Dichotomy is a strong word, but I expect that the correlation between productivity and positive emotions is generally negative.
Of course the advice here is: go meta, and explore the strategies to make the correlation positive.
My experience is the opposite; productivity generally feels awesome, sitting around doing nothing or wandering around the internet is generally depressing. (This is insufficient as a motivator for behavior.)
for these discussions we need to start differentiating meanings of the word "productive". When I get stuff done for an interesting task, or put together a piece of furniture, that''s being productive and usually feels pretty good. When I fill out paperwork for a lease or something, that usually feels boring and not fun, with some good feeling when it's over with. I think both of these fall under the lay definition of "productive". Leisure/fun times trades off against both of these, but my mental image when someone says "it's better to be productive than to spend time doing nothing" usually has me picturing boring homework.
Exactly. A person's general productivity and procrastination will probably greatly depend on whether most of their "productivity" is going interesting tasks or filling out paperwork.
So the right long-term strategy is probably to find a way to get paid for doing interesting tasks.
I'm currently about a quarter of the way through this book, and already it has several actionable insights on how to do that.
Just reading the book description, this sounds right:
Maybe the trick is with the "something valuable" part. Some people make money by doing things that are not valuable, or at least some Dilbert-esque process removes a lot of value from their contribution.
So while you shouldn't keep searching until you find something you feel passionate about (because it is your work that creates the passion), you probably should keep searching until you find something valuable, where the value you add isn't destroyed by the process. And then keep doing it.
Yeah. The author claims you need to find something where (1) you can improve your skills, (2) you believe your work has positive value, and (3) you don't actively dislike the people you're working with. From there, you can increase your skills and prove your value, then barter that value into a position that has the traits which correlate with fulfillment.
How do you prevent this very strong set of conditions from making you throw up your hands and say "alright, I'm screwed"? I feel like it's what a lot of people would, given their situation, be perfectly justified in doing.
You certainly can find productive tasks enjoyable, but it's common to find productive tasks unenjoyable. People don't hang out with each other because it's productive (except when networking), they hang out because it's fun. The fact that it's good for your health is a bonus, but isn't and shouldn't be the primary motivation.
Not obviously morally optimal, but it is actually morally optimal, for a broad enough sense of "having fun". But I say this as an ethical egoist.
Just because you are an ethical egoist does not mean that ethical egoism is the system by which all moral claims ought to be judged. Have you read the metaethics sequence?
It's true that all moral claims shouldn't be judged by ethical egoism because I believe it, moral claims should be judged by egoism because it's correct. And I have read the metaethics sequence, and found it interesting, though at times lacking. What part of it are you referring to?
Downvoted for proposing a poisonous idea. There IS an obvious and common dichotomy between being productive and experiencing positive emotions and pretending that it isn't there is bullshit that will only cause people to burn out and be even less productive AND less happy. Yours is the kind of attitude that leads people to say "I can never be as good as this amazing guy so I won't even try". Satisficing morality and happiness separately will get us far more of both.
I agree that productive tasks tend to be less enjoyable, but (at least for me) I still experience SOME positive emotions when I'm being productive, though (and when I'm reflecting on being productive). I just meant that it's possible to be productive and not feel miserable. I started getting more productive when I was able to use mindfulness to detach myself from an impulsive desire to experience happiness. I don't think that's a particularly harmful idea to suggest. I just think it's bad to discourage people from trying to find happiness and contentment in contributing to society (being productive) by implying that it's simply not possible. Also, from a utilitarian standpoint, spending time being productive (making a positive impact on the world) seems better than spending time pursuing individual happiness (to an extent, since you obviously are going to have a hard time being productive if you are miserable). If you value your personal happiness above others (like blacktrance), though, it totally makes sense that you would spend less time trying to make a positive impact on the world. I didn't realize people thought that way when I responded.
I felt sad when you called what I wrote "bullshit", though. I'm new to posting on LW and it makes me feel really depressed and rejected to have one of my first few discussions result in me being insulted like that.
Calling something bullshit is less of a slur than calling someone's ideas poisonous. Plenty of things are bullshit. If you can't handle people disagreeing with the truth of your statements or your ethical injunctions maybe you shouldn't go around telling someone that expressing their concerns is a poisonous idea.
Edit- I also don't appreciate your pathetic emotional manipulation, both here and in the related sub-thread.