Ishaan comments on Open Thread for February 18-24 2014 - Less Wrong

4 Post author: eggman 19 February 2014 12:57PM

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Comment author: Ishaan 19 February 2014 05:38:39PM * 12 points [-]

When you want someone to do something for you, do you prefer to ask them directly or do you prefer to mention something related and expect that they infer what you want?

You're gonna lose at least 20% of the OKC population and a much larger chunk of the general population with the complexity of your sentence structure and the use of words like "infer".

When you want something do you

Ask for it directly
Drop hints

And there's another problem - the real answer will usually be "it depends on the situation". So an even better question would be

How often do you drop hints about what you want, instead of asking directly?

All the time, I hate asking for things
Sometimes, I don't want to sound pushy
Never. Clear communication is always the best policy

(Even now, my real answer is "it depends on what system I think the person I am talking to uses". I'm not sure ask/tell is actually a property attributable to individual people...it's more a mode of group interaction)

Vote anonymously

Comment author: Error 20 February 2014 04:01:25PM 7 points [-]

You're gonna lose at least 20% of the OKC population and a much larger chunk of the general population with the complexity of your sentence structure and the use of words like "infer".

This sounds like a feature, not a bug.

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 20 February 2014 04:20:23PM 3 points [-]

Not if you want the question to actually be accepted for use on the site.

Comment author: Error 20 February 2014 05:14:09PM 3 points [-]

Ah. For some reason I thought it was a freeform question to be put to those potentially interested. (I don't actually know anything about OKC)

Comment author: Ishaan comment score below threshold [+] (26 children)

Comment author: Lumifer 20 February 2014 09:00:59PM 7 points [-]

Is there some sort of downside to less educated or less intelligent people understanding the question?

Presumably the point of OKC questions is to find yourself a mate/partner/sex toy/etc. If you can filter out the stupidest part of OKC population right at the beginning, that's a win.

I would like to gently admonish you for making fun of a disadvantaged out-group...

I see absolutely nothing wrong with making fun of stupid people. And nerds. And a variety of ethnic groups. And pretty much everything.

Comment author: pragmatist 21 February 2014 06:09:17AM 3 points [-]

I see absolutely nothing wrong with making fun of stupid people. And nerds. And a variety of ethnic groups. And pretty much everything.

That's an odd view. I'm presuming that you would see something wrong with, say, a popular kid in high school who made a habit of beating up disabled kids. But you see absolutely nothing wrong if the same person doesn't physically assault the kids but instead simply ridicules them publicly for being disabled? In both cases, it seems pretty clear that the bully is doing harm to the kids, although the nature of the harm differs.

Could you clarify what the morally relevant distinction is between these two situations, why causing one form of harm is bad and the other isn't? It wouldn't just be a distinction that makes the second option less bad than the first option; it would be a distinction that makes the second option not bad at all, if I take your words literally.

Or maybe I'm misinterpreting what you mean by "making fun"?

Comment author: Lumifer 21 February 2014 07:44:43AM 3 points [-]

Or maybe I'm misinterpreting what you mean by "making fun"?

Yes, you do. I am not talking about power games, or domination/submission, or even simple malice.

The opposite of "making fun of X" is "taking X very, very seriously". With a serious expression on one's face, according to the instructions and forms carefully collected in a three-ring binder, while being conscious of one's self-importance, and certainly not tolerating any deviation from the proper procedure or, God forbid, disrespect (of oneself, the proper procedure, and the three-ring binder).

Comment author: Ishaan 20 February 2014 09:39:24PM * 0 points [-]

If you can filter out

They'll still answer the question,..they'll just answer it incorrectly and you'll throw noise into your data. OKC has many questions which are more direct proxies for intelligence.

I see absolutely nothing wrong

Which makes sense, since you're reactionary in your politics, and political correctness is seen as a lefty thing. I think this particular lefty value is fairly easy to defend though:

Humor functions to ease tensions when everyone is in on the joke. Insults directed at an out-group who is not laughing and is hurt raises inter-group tensions. Discouraging members of your in group from insulting members of out groups is just a special case of encouraging cooperation over defection - something which is both pragmatic, and to me. intrinsically moral.

TL:DR it's bad PR.

Exceptions exist. If you're giving some sort of constructive criticism to an out-group, and your criticism takes the form of mildly insulting humor, that's okay - because once again, you're using humor as an outlet for tension rather than a conduit for it.

Comment author: Lumifer 20 February 2014 10:03:39PM 4 points [-]

since you're reactionary in your politics

8-0 That's news to me.

Humor functions... Insults directed...

I think you're a bit too hasty to equate humor and insults. They are quite different.

Humor also has more functions than just "ease tensions".

TL:DR it's bad PR

And why should I care about PR?

Comment author: Vulture 20 February 2014 10:47:35PM * 1 point [-]

since you're reactionary in your politics

8-0 That's news to me.

I'd be interested to hear more about what your political views are. I, too, had gathered the impression from my interactions with you that you were at least reactionary-leaning.

Comment author: Lumifer 21 February 2014 02:04:05AM 6 points [-]

I'd be interested to hear more about what your political views are.

<shrug> I am not too fond of sticking labels onto myself. It's probably easier to answer this question in negatives. I'm not a liberal in the contemporary American sense. I am not a conservative. I'm not a neo-reactionary, though I'm sympathetic to and tend to cheer their skewering of sacred cows. On the other hand I have absolutely no desire to return to the imagined past of enlightened monarchy, benevolent aristocracy, and firmly established social order.

Comment author: Ishaan 21 February 2014 07:46:16AM * 1 point [-]

skewering of sacred cows.

I thought that's what reaction is, essentially?...it seems "reactionary" as generally used refers to someone who counter-argues against prevailing ideas that are new and recently fashionable.

I wasn't intending to imply that you cluster with moldbug or neo-reactionaries specifically.

Comment author: Lumifer 21 February 2014 07:54:04AM 0 points [-]

I thought that's what reaction is, essentially?...it seems "reactionary" as generally used refers to someone who counter-argues against prevailing ideas that are new and recently fashionable.

"Reactionary" in the political context is primarily a derogatory term, usually meaning "a conservative I really don't like".

Not to mention that sacred cows are skewered by revolutionaries much MUCH more often than by conservatives :-)

continue this thread »

Comment author: Ishaan 21 February 2014 07:36:53AM 0 points [-]

I mean, this was just an offhand comment and not really a big deal, but you do really not think there's something at least a little bit counterproductive about a forum like Lesswrong being disdainful towards members of the general population?

Comment author: Lumifer 21 February 2014 07:48:28AM 2 points [-]

No, I don't.

First, I am not a forum. Second, counterproductive in pursuit of which goal? And third, I don't hold the general population in high regard.

Comment author: Ishaan 21 February 2014 06:00:11PM * -1 points [-]

First, I am not a forum.

? I was asking if you thought that the propagation of a certain dynamic between two cultures was unproductive. How is that related to whether or not you represent a forum?

counterproductive in pursuit of which goal?

The pursuit of good, humanity getting along together as a cohesive whole and being happy, etc

I don't hold the general population in high regard.

Why does that matter? You don't have to hold someone in high regard to care about them.

"High regard" is a relative measure anyway, not an absolute one. It doesn't make sense to hold the general population in "high regard" because the general population is by definition average, whereas "high regard" is by definition reserved for those who are above average.

Unless you meant "Regard" as "general concern for" ...in which case I have no answer, since that's a moral thing.

Comment author: Lumifer 21 February 2014 06:22:09PM -1 points [-]

How is that related to whether or not you represent a forum?

Because you start with me being disdainful and then switch to the issue of the forum being disdainful.

The pursuit of good, humanity getting along together as a cohesive whole and being happy, etc

That's pretty meaningless handwaving. Among other things, humanity has never been and does not look likely to become in the foreseeable future "a cohesive whole". This is a good thing.

Why does that matter? You don't have to hold someone in high regard to care about them.

Because we are talking about "being disdainful" and "making fun of". That's not a discussion about caring, that's a discussion about holding in high regard or not.

It doesn't make sense to hold the general population in "high regard"

I am glad we agree :-P

Comment author: Luke_A_Somers 19 February 2014 08:53:34PM 4 points [-]

I'd hedge in the 'all the time' and 'never' to include 'nearly' variants of each.

Comment author: [deleted] 21 February 2014 04:39:33PM 1 point [-]

And I'd split the “Sometimes” into “Often” and “Rarely”, otherwise a supermajority of people would just pick the middle answer (and also, ISTM that “how often” questions on OKC usually have four possible answers).

Comment author: btrettel 20 February 2014 02:19:21AM 1 point [-]

Great comment. I think your latter question is excellent, though I'm not sure that "drop hints" is the best way to describe guessing. I'll think about what might be better.

Comment author: Ishaan 20 February 2014 08:38:41PM * 2 points [-]

You could further simplify it to "How often do you directly ask for what you want?" -Almost Never, I hate asking for things, - Sometimes bla bla bla, - Almost always, clear communication bla bla bla

Also, some people take things really literally, so I'd take LukeASomers' advice and add the "almost" hedges

Ishaan comments on Open Thread for February 18-24 2014 - Less Wrong

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