Viliam_Bur comments on Open Thread for February 18-24 2014 - Less Wrong

4 Post author: eggman 19 February 2014 12:57PM

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Comment author: Viliam_Bur 20 February 2014 01:51:45PM *  20 points [-]

When an academic community observes research promoting or justifying oppression, it should ensure that this research does not continue.

By the way, this is stupid even from the "we only care about the 'good' people (women, black, trans, etc.)" viewpoint, because the consequences sometimes look like this:

1) Someone suggests there could be biological differences between men and women. Angry screams, research abandoned.

2) Medical research done on volunteers (the expendable males) finds a new cure.

3) It appears that the cure works better for men, and may be even harmful for women (because it was never tested on women separately, and no one even dared to suggest it should be). Angry screams again -- unfortunately no reflection of what actually happened; instead the usual scapegoat blamed again.

More meta lessons for the LW audience: The world is entangled, you can't conveniently split it into separate magisteria. If you decide to remove a part of reality from your model, you don't know how much it will cost you: because to properly estimate the cost of X you need to have X in your model.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 22 February 2014 01:17:14AM 10 points [-]

By the way, here is a recent example of just such a bad consequence for women. Basic summery:

1) Latest extreme sport added to olympics.

2) The playing field and obstacles will be the same for men and women; otherwise, it would be sexist and besides its cheaper to only build one arena. (We will of avoid thinking about why we have separate women's and men's competitions.)

3) Women wind up playing on the area designed for men and frequently get seriously injured at much higher rates.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 22 February 2014 08:42:41AM 6 points [-]

Thoughts about having leagues/categories based on measured potential rather than male/female?

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 22 February 2014 09:19:48PM 8 points [-]

1) How do you reliably measure potential? You could have leagues based on ability (similar to the way major/minor league baseball works today). But notice that no one cares about the minors.

2) You do realize the practical effect of this in most sports would be that all the levels above amateur would be massively male dominated?

3) In more violent sports you'd have to deal with the cultural taboo against male on female violence. (You could eliminate that taboo, but somehow I'd don't think the feminists would be happy with that outcome.)

4) The feminists are likely to cry bloody sexism over (2) and (3) above.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 25 February 2014 01:58:50AM 3 points [-]

You can't reliably measure potential, though there's been some work on genes and sports.

Weight (and possibly height) classes would be a start. Not the gender issue, but I think there should be an anti-dehydration standard for sports with weight classes.

Comment author: Vulture 20 February 2014 11:08:34PM *  10 points [-]

A side note to your otherwise excellent comment:

"we only care about the 'good' people (women, black, trans, etc.)"

As someone from the other side of the fence, I should warn you that your model of how liberals think about social justice seems to be subtly but significantly flawed. My experience is that virtually no liberals talk or (as far as I can tell) think in terms of "good" vs. "bad" people, or more generally in terms of people's intrinsic moral worth. A more accurate model would probably be something like "we should only be helping the standard 'oppressed' people (women, black, trans, etc.)". The main difference being that real liberals are far more likely to think in terms of combating social forces than in terms of rewarding people based on their merit.

Comment author: James_Miller 21 February 2014 04:08:26PM 15 points [-]

My model of how liberals think, based on teaching at a left wing college, is that liberals find "politically incorrect" views disgusting.

Comment author: Lumifer 21 February 2014 04:23:39PM 8 points [-]

liberals find "politically incorrect" views disgusting.

I would guess this approach is much more female than male.

Comment author: James_Miller 21 February 2014 04:27:51PM 12 points [-]

I do teach at a women's college.

Comment author: Vulture 21 February 2014 04:16:08PM 0 points [-]

Since "politically incorrect" in this context basically means "most views that liberals disagree with", it's hardly surprising that they're repulsed by views in that category.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 22 February 2014 07:51:58AM 1 point [-]

That still doesn't explain why they can't disagree with a view in a civil manner.

Comment author: pragmatist 22 February 2014 08:46:37AM 8 points [-]

Most people, independent of political faction, can't have civil political disagreements. This effect tends to be exacerbated when they are surrounded by like-minded people and mitigated when they are surrounded by political opponents. Conservatives in elite academic environments are usually in the latter category, so I do think they will tend to be more civil in political disagreements than their liberal counterparts. However, I suspect that this situation would be reversed in, say, a military environment, although I have no experience with the military.

You could look at Fox News, where conservative contributors are generally far more bombastic and partisan than their liberal counterparts. Many liberals allege that Fox News deliberately hires milquetoast liberals in order to make liberalism look bad, but I don't think we need to posit a top-down agenda to explain the "Fox News liberal" phenomenon. It's simply the case that people are much less comfortable expressing their political views vigorously when they see themselves as being in enemy territory, especially if they need to make a home in that territory, rather than just briefly visiting it.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 23 February 2014 12:05:49AM 4 points [-]

There's a difference between being bombastic and declaring that you're opponents shouldn't have the right to express their opinion.

Comment author: pragmatist 23 February 2014 01:11:04AM *  2 points [-]

Are you claiming that there is a significant proportion of liberals who declare that their opponents have no right to express their opinion? I'm pretty sure that's false.

Comment author: Vulture 23 February 2014 01:36:43AM *  5 points [-]

Maybe not a significant portion, but it happens more often than you might think. On the other hand, I highly doubt that this kind of disruptive rhetorical behavior is more common on one side of the left-right spectrum than on the other.

Comment author: Randy_M 24 February 2014 10:36:50PM 0 points [-]

I thought the research was that liberals didn't have purity axis of morality (Haidt, is it?).

Comment author: badger 24 February 2014 11:38:18PM 8 points [-]

Haidt's claim is that liberals rely on purity/sacredness relatively less often, but it's still there. Some of the earlier work on the purity axis put heavy emphasis on sex or sin. Since then, Haidt has acknowledged that the difference between liberals and conservatives might even out if you add food or environmental concerns to purity.

Comment author: Nornagest 24 February 2014 11:50:04PM *  12 points [-]

Yeah, environmentalist attitudes towards e.g. GMOs and nuclear power look awfully purity-minded to me. I'm not sure whether I want to count environmentalism/Green thought as part of the mainline Left, though; it's certainly not central to it, and seems to be its own thing in a lot of ways.

(Cladistically speaking it's definitely not. But cladistics can get you in trouble when you're looking at political movements.)

Comment author: Viliam_Bur 25 February 2014 03:17:31PM 8 points [-]

Maybe it's about rationalization. The same feeling could be expressed by one person as: "this is a heresy" (because "heresy" is their party's official boo light) and by another person as: "this could harm people" (because "harming people" is their party's official boo light). But in fact both people just feel the idea is repulsive to them, but can't quickly explain why.

Comment author: ErikM 27 February 2014 09:47:53AM *  5 points [-]

I think this could be generalized into a model with predictions: If we suppose that it's easier to get people to nominally than actually abandon one of Haidt's moral axes (from Wikipedia, to save people some lookups: Care/harm, Fairness/cheating, Liberty/oppression, Loyalty/betrayal, Authority/subversion, and Sanctity/degradation), we should expect that people who disclaim one of the axes will find ways to relabel violations of that axis to make it sound like it's violating a professed axis.

To be specific, if you have a group that officially disclaims the fairness/cheating axis, I expect they'll be quick to explain how cheating is a form of harm. Or drop the care/harm axis, and we'll probably hear about how harm is a form of oppression. And so forth.

Comment author: Viliam_Bur 27 February 2014 12:37:14PM 4 points [-]

Related: Fake Morality

Comment author: James_Miller 24 February 2014 10:43:56PM *  8 points [-]

Yes, but I don't believe it. As a test, imagine someone offers to give $1 billion to a city if it makes one public water fountain white's only. I bet most liberals would be horrified at the idea of the city accepting the offer.

Comment author: shminux 24 February 2014 11:08:12PM 2 points [-]

I imagine that most people in the US would find such a transaction rather unnerving, regardless of political leanings, so this is not a good test of liberal views. Do you have a better example of a correlation between valuing political correctness and liberal views?

Comment author: James_Miller 25 February 2014 12:17:32AM 7 points [-]

Hate speech. The liberal response to what Larry Summers said about women and math seems motivated by disgust.

Comment author: badger 24 February 2014 11:27:02PM 1 point [-]

Haidt acknowledges that liberals feel disgust at racism and that this falls under purity/sacredness (explicitly listing it in a somewhat older article on Table 1, pg 59). His claim is that liberals rely on the purity/sacredness scale relatively more often, not that they never engage it. Still, in your example, I'd expect the typical reaction to be anger at a fairness violation rather than disgust.

Comment author: James_Miller 24 February 2014 11:59:19PM 4 points [-]

But since the harm is trivial, no one is being treated unfairly absent disgust considerations.

Comment author: Mestroyer 07 March 2014 04:54:21AM 0 points [-]

You're familiar with the idea of anthropomorphization, right? Well, by analogy to that, I would call what you did here "rationalistomorphization," a word I wish was added to LessWrong jargon.

This reaction needs only scope insensitivity to explain, you don't need to invoke purity. Though I actually agree with you that liberals have a disgust moral center.

Comment author: James_Miller 07 March 2014 05:02:49AM *  3 points [-]

needs only scope insensitivity to explain

How so?

Comment author: Mestroyer 07 March 2014 05:50:15AM 4 points [-]

If you are told a billion dollars hasn't been taxed from people in a city, how many people getting to keep a thousand dollars (say) do you imagine? Probably not a million of them. How many hours not worked, or small things that they buy do you imagine? Probably not any.

But now that I think about it, I'd rather have an extra thousand dollars than be able to drink at a particular drinking fountain.

But I don't think fairness the morality center is necessarily fairness over differing amounts of harm. It could be differing over social status. You could have an inflated sense of fairness, so that you cared much more than the underlying difference in what people get.

Comment author: [deleted] 03 July 2014 02:07:32PM 0 points [-]

I don't think it matters of it's racial. The general principle of having someone try to buy out a government's espoused moral principles sounds Very Bad. The reasoning is that if the government can be bought once, it can be bought twice, and thus it can be bought in general and is in the control of moneyed donors rather than the voting populace, proof by induction on the naturals -- so to speak.

Comment author: James_Miller 03 July 2014 02:33:06PM *  1 point [-]

Lobbyists and their money already have massive influence over governments. Plus, whether it's a good or bad idea, my claim is that most liberals would find the idea disgusting.

Comment author: Nornagest 24 February 2014 11:26:14PM 0 points [-]

Economics being what it is, this is evidence that your hypothetical segregationist throwback is expecting to get more than a billion dollars of value out of the deal. That doesn't quite establish that someone's trying to screw the city, but it does gesture pretty emphatically in that direction; actual political sentiments hardly enter into it, except insofar as they provide exploitable tensions.

(If I were the mayor, I'd take the money and then build the fountain as part of a practical exhibit in a civil rights museum.)

Comment author: Viliam_Bur 21 February 2014 09:57:27AM *  14 points [-]

My model is that it's: "we want to help everyone who is suffering" but also: "the only real suffering is the suffering according to our definitions".

Or more precisely: "the suffering according to our definitions influences millions of people, and anything you said (assuming you are not lying, which is kinda dubious, considering you are not one of us) is merely one specific weird exception, which might be an interesting footnote in an academic debate, but... sorry, limited resources".

I understand that with given model of reality, this is the right thing to do. But unfortunately, the model seems to suffer horribly from double-counting the evidence for it and treating everything else (including the whole science, if necessary) as an enemy soldier. A galaxy-sized affective death spiral. -- On the other hand, this is my impression mostly from the internet debates, and the internet debates usually show the darker side of humanity, in any direction, because the evaporative cooling is so much easier there.

(Off-topic: Heh, I feel I'm linking Sequences better than a Jehovah's Witness could quote the Bible. If anyone gets a cultish vibe from this, let me note that I am translating the whole thing these days, and I have just finished the "Politics is the Mindkiller" part, so it's all fresh in my memory.)

Comment author: Vulture 21 February 2014 02:17:17PM 5 points [-]

Okay, your model is better than I thought. Sorry for nitpicking your hyperbole :-)

Comment author: Viliam_Bur 23 February 2014 12:13:33PM 5 points [-]

It's good to sometimes say the obvious things explicitly. (Also, some other person could have said the same thing non-hyperbolically.)

Comment author: [deleted] 03 July 2014 02:04:24PM 0 points [-]

(Off-topic: Heh, I feel I'm linking Sequences better than a Jehovah's Witness could quote the Bible. If anyone gets a cultish vibe from this, let me note that I am translating the whole thing these days, and I have just finished the "Politics is the Mindkiller" part, so it's all fresh in my memory.)

Cultish? No, it's how you signal that you're a rationalist and your readers are rationalists, and they should therefore actually consider what you're saying, rather than dismissing you as some kind of mainstream Traditionally Rational idiot with a snide recitation of "Bro, do you even Bayes?"

Comment author: Douglas_Knight 21 February 2014 06:49:06AM 2 points [-]

I don't think he's surprised to hear that claim. How would you distinguish the hypotheses? Perhaps you should hold the question in mind for a week as you think as a liberal and listen to liberals.