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byrnema comments on The Meditation on Curiosity - Less Wrong
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Here's a mind dump. I don't have a lot of time right now, but here goes.
Err... I'm not scared?
Than examine it.
No. I decided not to do that.
Why?
Hmm... what have I said on that subject...
Okay, sure that makes sense, but what if the wall is merely a creation of fear?
Okay, do I have any fear of changing away from Theism.
I want to say no...
But I have to say yes because I feel fear.
What is the fear of?
Potentials:
- Fear of losing a belief
- Fear of social implications
- Fear of the unknown
- Fear of judgement/punishment
- Fear of being wrong
- Fear of admitting mistakes
Let's go down the list: Fear of losing a belief.
I don't fear losing a belief.
A belief or any belief?
Mmm... most beliefs? I don't know.
Can I think of a belief I would fear losing?
Can I think of a belief I don't fear losing?
Sure, that's easy.
Than name it.
Uh... I guess I need a list of beliefs...
- My name is my name
- 2 + 2 = 4
- The show tonight will be a success
- I am getting more rational
The first two have no fear.
The third has more emotional attachment, but I don't fear losing that belief. I'd rather the show tonight be a success, but losing that belief doesn't scare me.
The last... well, it's true or not. I would rather lose that belief if it were incorrect so I could change what I needed to become more rational. So no, I don't fear losing it.
Is it more accurate to say that I fear keeping it when I shouldn't?
Yes.
Is this a good fear?
Yes, in as much as fear can ever be good.
Can I think of a more valid fear?
We are getting off subject.
Okay. Do I fear losing Theism?
Which part?
All of it.
Uh... I don't see how that can happen as of yet.
So? It doesn't matter if you can imagine it. Does it scare you?
This wasn't the original question:
Okay. But this answer matters.
Why?
Because it eliminates a potential cause for being scared of critically examining it.
Okay, what are the other causes?
- Fear of losing Theism
- Time wasted on other things
- Fear of confirming Theism and dealing with the social consequences
- Preemptive rejection of Rationality and/or Reality
Okay. So do I fear losing Theism?
I don't know.
You don't know or you don't want to know?
Well, what would be the point in not wanting to know?
- Meta-belief
- Belief in belief
- Convenient ignorance
(Ooh, Convenient Ignorance may be a good subject for a top-level post...)
Okay... so do I believe in my belief of Theism?
Sure, in the sense that I believe I believe in Theism.
Is that the same thing?
Err... no, I guess not.
So, do I believe in my belief?
What is the definition again?
Okay, no, I do believe Theism.
Do you believe in your belief of Theism?
I don't think so, since I don't begrudge others their disbelief.
You match the description: "It is good and virtuous and beneficial to believe God exists."
Only in the sense that if it is true it is good to believe.
So if it wasn't true, you wouldn't want to believe?
Correct.
So go find out if it is true.
Yeah, okay, show me how.
Critically examine it.
I can't.
Why not?
There is a wall. That belief isn't accessible through critical examination.
If it were, would you examine it?
I don't know.
You don't know, or you don't want to know?
What difference does it make if I can't examine it anyway?
Because you may be able to examine it and you are lying to yourself about not being able to.
Oh.
And that's all the time I have. I'll try to add more tomorrow. If there is a better place to do this or people would rather me post a summary I am more than willing to comply.
EDIT: Part 2. (It isn't as interesting.)
All that sounds like natural rambling free-association to me, and more like fear of double-think than any actual double-think.
Are you reluctant to "critically examine" your beliefs because it just sounds like a lot of work? (Counselors will say, 'let's work on this' and then an hour later when you feel like an exposed mess of emoted goo and they'll say, 'OK, see you next week.')
Given that you're comfortable with your beliefs, perhaps you're reluctant to expose your beliefs because it'll be like throwing them to the wolves. If not indiscriminate slaughter (no offense to the more militant atheists here), it'll still be something like 12 to 1.
Well, if you ever decide to do this, if it helps, I offer to help you defend your views to the extent that I can competently do so.
For me, free association clears up doublethink. If I write my thought into a sentence, the sentence has a strict meaning in the English language. I can write the other side of doublethink as a second sentence and let them duke it out over a conversation with myself.
Also, by the time I had responded with the rambling I had mostly sorted out the initial emotional response. I was very surprised that I had one. (It wasn't big; but any at all is a BIG RED FLAG.)
No. At least, not how I think of "a lot of work." I certainly avoid some topics because they are a lot of work but this isn't one of them.
Nah. I am reluctant to expose my beliefs because that is a lot of work. I am too verbose for my own good and have a hard time not responding to every single comment or question.
Hmm... how is this different than the clever arguer in The Bottom Line? Honestly, I won't need help defending my views. If I cannot defend them, why should you? The goal in talking about my beliefs wouldn't be defense and offense oriented (at least, not for me). Seeking the truth is not (or shouldn't be) a war.
OK, you don't sound afraid or like you'll want help.
You seem more self-possessed than I am. (This could be related to gender.) When I was arguing for theism, I felt like the inferential distance was great and that there were too many angles to parry at once. I would have been grateful for an interpreter/mediator.
I was most uncomfortable when people speculated about my motives, often with motives I couldn't relate to. I felt more flubbed by identity issues than atheist arguments (which I find I like well enough when they're relevant).
I think there is one, out there. A war of world views. LW is a sandbox where we can see how different angles and themes will play out once physical materialism becomes more mainstream.
My impression of the origin of due process is that the designers of the legal system were well aware of "the clever arguer" and thought the only remedy was to even the playing field.
I wouldn't sell your gender short. I have been doing this sort of arguing for a long time so I kind of know what to expect. The idea of an interpreter is actually significantly more interesting to me than a defender. Perhaps I misunderstood your original intent.
I can understand that. I think I am approaching this from a different angle than you did; we'll see how it goes. :)
I think people are fighting each other and they keep trying to dig up a war so they can tell other people to fight for them. Christianity loves to talk about this war of ideas. I am not convinced such a war needs to exist and have decided not to partake. When it comes to the bottom line, I choose what I believe. I take the evidence and come to a conclusion and move forward. The war just isn't interesting to me.
Near the end of What Evidence Filtered Evidence?, EY says something similar.
My impressions of the community so far have been good. The vague confession didn't really draw a lot of heat and people were very kind when asking for more details. So all signs point to good things ahead.
That being said, I would still love your input when the time comes. I just don't want you to feel like you have to pick sides. I'm not picking a side and it'll be my beliefs on the table.