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Original Seeing

41 Post author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 14 October 2007 04:38AM

Followup to:  Cached Thoughts, The Virtue of Narrowness

Since Robert Pirsig put this very well, I'll just copy down what he said.  I don't know if this story is based on reality or not, but either way, it's true.

        He'd been having trouble with students who had nothing to say. At first he thought it was laziness but later it became apparent that it wasn't.  They just couldn't think of anything to say.
        One of them, a girl with strong-lensed glasses, wanted to write a five-hundred word essay about the United States.  He was used to the sinking feeling that comes from statements like this, and suggested without disparagement that she narrow it down to just Bozeman.
       When the paper came due she didn't have it and was quite upset.  She had tried and tried but she just couldn't think of anything to say.
        It just stumped him.  Now he couldn't think of anything to say.  A silence occurred, and then a peculiar answer:  "Narrow it down to the main street of Bozeman."  It was a stroke of insight.
        She nodded dutifully and went out.  But just before her next class she came back in real distress, tears this time, distress that had obviously been there for a long time.  She still couldn't think of anything to say, and couldn't understand why, if she couldn't think of anything about all of Bozeman, she should be able to think of something about just one street.

        He was furious.  "You're not looking!" he said.  A memory came back of his own dismissal from the University for having too much to say.  For every fact there is an infinity of hypotheses.  The more you look the more you see.  She really wasn't looking and yet somehow didn't understand this.
        He told her angrily, "Narrow it down to the front of one building on the main street of Bozeman.  The Opera House.  Start with the upper left-hand brick."
        Her eyes, behind the thick-lensed glasses, opened wide.
      She came in the next class with a puzzled look and handed him a five-thousand-word essay on the front of the Opera House on the main street of Bozeman, Montana.  "I sat in the hamburger stand across the street," she said, "and started writing about the first brick, and the second brick, and then by the third brick it all started to come and I couldn't stop.  They thought I was crazy, and they kept kidding me, but here it all is.  I don't understand it."
        Neither did he, but on long walks through the streets of town he thought about it and concluded she was evidently stopped with the same kind of blockage that had paralyzed him on his first day of teaching.  She was blocked because she was trying to repeat, in her writing, things she had already heard, just as on the first day he had tried to repeat things he had already decided to say.  She couldn't think of anything to write about Bozeman because she couldn't recall anything she had heard worth repeating.  She was strangely unaware that she could look and see freshly for herself, as she wrote, without primary regard for what had been said before.  The narrowing down to one brick destroyed the blockage because it was so obvious she had to do some original and direct seeing.

                —Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance


Part of the Seeing With Fresh Eyes subsequence of How To Actually Change Your Mind

Next post: "The Logical Fallacy of Generalization from Fictional Evidence"

Previous post: "The 'Outside the Box' Box"

Comments (22)

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Comment author: Doug_S. 14 October 2007 05:11:58AM 30 points [-]


I'm not quite sure what that meant, but it sounded great! ;)

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 14 October 2007 06:10:14AM 33 points [-]


Comment author: Gray_Area 14 October 2007 06:32:41AM 2 points [-]

Watching myself trying to write (or speak), I am coming to realize what a horrendous hack the language processes of the brain are. It is sobering to contemplate what sorts of noise and bias this introduces to our attempts to think and communicate.

Comment author: Jeff 14 October 2007 09:55:54AM 3 points [-]

Next time I need inspiration I'll just stare at a wall then.


Comment author: Anders_Sandberg 14 October 2007 10:15:18AM 2 points [-]

There is much to be said for looking at the super-specific. All the interesting complexity is found in the specific cases, while the whole often has less complexity (i.e. the algorithmic complexity of a list of the integers is much smaller than the algorithmic complexity of most large integers). While we might be trying to find good compressed descriptions of the whole, if we do not see how specific cases can be compressed and how they relate to each other we do not have much of a starting point, given that the whole usually overwhelms our limited working memories.

Staring at walls is underrated. But I tend to get distracted from my main project by all the interesting details in the walls.

Comment author: Robin_Hanson2 14 October 2007 11:55:24AM 2 points [-]

So let us find very concrete examples of disagreements close to us and see if we can identify the key biases.

Comment author: Tiiba2 14 October 2007 06:31:18PM 3 points [-]

Was the girl trying to say something about the US, or say something that nobody said before?

A I understand, narrowness is very useful in the latter case, because it gives you a topic about which others haven't already said everything. And Antony van Leeuwenhoek would agree that you could find details that are otherwise hidden.

Still, school essays rarely require you to write something truly original. I could write 500 words about "the United States" right now. So I feel that this is a sort of a bad example.

There's your disagreement. Get to analyzing.

Comment author: Jef_Allbright 14 October 2007 07:53:26PM 0 points [-]

Anders wrote: All the interesting complexity is found in the specific cases, while the whole often has less complexity...

I would offer that it's not the algorithmic complexity, but the interconnections that are "interesting", and **any** (perceived) relationships in a block universe necessarily entail an observer. This is the "zen" running through Pirsig's book about the meaning of meaning.

Comment author: Jef_Allbright 14 October 2007 08:15:06PM 1 point [-]

Addendum (Out of concern for appearing too vague and mystical):

What is interesting about a brick wall?

Is is in the texture of a brick or its color or its cracks? Is it in the alignment pattern of the rows, or the deviations within the rows? Is it in the statistical regularities of the rows and columns forming the wall? Is it in the demonstration of rectangular tiling in the plane, properties of containment and division? Is it in the ecological aspects of the wall in relation to it's environment? ...

What is interesting in Borges's Library of Babel, in all it's vast algorithmic complexity?

What's commonly lacking from scientific accounts of the world is the essential role of the observer, not in the world itself, but in any accounting of it.

The benefit of staring at a wall is to become aware of the observer, beyond that it's relatively pointless.

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 15 October 2007 09:28:26PM 8 points [-]

There was an interesting exercise for overcoming writer's block somewhere, which said to pick a word, any word at random. After you did that, you were told to write a sentence which included that word. After that, a paragraph which included that sentence.

It felt surprisingly effective.

Comment author: DanielLC 26 September 2011 05:26:46AM 1 point [-]

This reminds me of vocabulary homework where I had to write a sentence using each vocabulary word. I couldn't do it. We would get extra credit if we also included one of the extra credit vocabulary words. That I could do.

Comment author: Doug_S. 16 October 2007 05:16:15AM 1 point [-]

Most of what I see is what other people have already written... I don't get out of my house much, being a job-free Internet addict. When you live a life in which words are almost all there is, what does that do to originality?

Comment author: marty 16 October 2007 05:08:53PM 0 points [-]

Hi this Marty again, this story defines a very open way of thinking. compared when I write I think of a word to describe what I'm thinking If the word is not the correct fit the word has no meaning in my mind. And I find a better thought to fit the word. Is this a good way to translate what is in my mind to English? Or, do I need to think in English before using the word. What still puzzles me is what is a troll? Please remember I have only studied English for maybe, a half a year so your help is greatly appreciated.

Comment author: Robin_Z 11 September 2008 07:34:10PM 5 points [-]

Regarding the first reply here (a year later...): perhaps there is another problem visible here, the problem of when advice is too plain. The story advises in a fashion so transparently evident that even SHRDLU could get it: the poor student quite literally wasn't looking at anything, so Pirsig/PhĂŚdrus gave her a topic so mundane that she had to go down and see for herself. If Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance were a math textbook, the rule would be clear: "if you examine something, you will have something to say about it." But because writing is a mysterious art, it is assumed that the moral of a story about writing must be mysterious as well.

(Oddly, I never fell prey to this with the visual arts. I thank whoever told me about the negative-space/outline trick - that worked so well that I cached "drawing is seeing" instead.)

Comment author: puf_almighty 21 November 2010 11:04:34PM 9 points [-]

Fucking hell, that completely and instantly worked. I looked at the first object in the room, determined to come up with something interesting about it- the corner of three planes in the wall, over by the foyer, which makes a 3d platform about 7 feet off the ground. Instantly I was thinking about its structure and what it concealed and what was on top of it. I would not have been thusly inspired to think about that wall had I not set out to see it that way. Nice.

Comment author: giambolvoe 24 December 2010 09:29:50PM *  2 points [-]

This happens to me every time someone asks me to explain what I believe. I say "uhhh..."
I try to ask people to be more specific (what do you believe about this particular topic)
If they don't, I just tell them I believe human rationality can come to an understanding of everything, and can at least attempt to account for the things it doesn't understand. I may be wrong, but it's so damn hard to start from nothing, even if you do know everything (which I don't).

Comment author: roland 23 April 2011 10:22:20PM 3 points [-]

I think this video says it all: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIAoJsS9Ix8

Comment author: Dojan 03 October 2011 06:45:42PM 2 points [-]

Interesting! But I wonder how they phrased that to the kids, I mean if they said something like "Here I'll show you!", and then sat next to the kid as shown, that kid probably felt some pressure to do as shown, regardless of logic, while the apes just want the candy. Would be interresting to see the kids when left alone with a box like that...

But here I am, second guessing the study that a team of presumably really intelligent researchers have spent a long time working on, a few minutes after seeing a tiny bit of all their work... reminds me of xkcd.com/277/

Comment author: Dojan 04 October 2011 10:14:00AM *  0 points [-]

Wait, reading just a little more reveals:

NOTE: This is a dramatic reenactment of an experiment for a TV documentary. The actual experiment criteria: * The children used ranged from 41-59 months. * The chimps used ranged from 2-6 y.o. Chimps mature at 13-14 for females, 15-16 for males. * The box always contains a sticker. When the child gets the sticker, they trade that in for a food reward. * The child is instructed to get the reward any way they can, then the experimenter leaves the room. The test is filmed. When the child is successful, they say "I have got it!" and the experimenter returns to the room and gives them their reward.

[Edit: Spelling]

Comment author: Fooljeff 26 July 2012 05:09:13PM 2 points [-]

Betty Edwards encountered the same problem when teaching students how to draw.

She made a still-life with a ball infront of a vase. But the student drew the ball beside the vase. When she said "Look the ball is in front", he replied "Yes but I don't know how to draw it that way."

Like the essay writer the student was trying to replicate symbols he had already practiced instead of seeing with fresh eyes. She gave the students an image upside down and they were able to replicate it accurately because it forced them to look instead of draw learned symbols.


Comment author: Kenny 03 January 2013 04:31:51AM 1 point [-]

This is powerful.

Comment author: Timo 23 October 2014 02:53:30AM *  0 points [-]

Whooo ! That was great.