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michaelkeenan comments on The Triumph of Humanity Chart - Less Wrong
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Comments (77)
This comment seems aggressive and rude, so I doubt it will be persuasive to Lukas. As Yvain wrote in How To Not Lose An Argument, we should beware of status effects during arguments. If Lukas agrees with you now, then Lukas agrees he is a weasel-word-using rationalizing entitled infantile fake-victim, which is very difficult to accept. Without the insults, Lukas would have had the opportunity to make an easier update - that he misunderstood, or the text was unclear, or that he'd prefer Dias to have clarified but reasonable people could disagree, or something like that.
Yvain makes the mistake of believing that the person he is arguing with is the person he is convincing.
I'm not interested in convincing Lukas of anything. My target is the audience, who I'm not arguing with, but negotiating with.
Observe the neutral karma score of my rude comment, at least as of now - it might change, as I reveal something: Had I been so rude to somebody else in different circumstances, it would have been deeply negative. Lukas lost considerable status by complaining about being downvoted, and half the participating audience is happy to upvote me for targeting somebody who has thus earned a lowered status. Those who downvote largely agree with the status assessment, but, like you, disagree with my behavior.
Everybody who upvoted my rude comment, or was tempted to? I was acting like a bully of an approved low-status target - and you approved. Chew on that. (And observe your cognitive dissonance, as you rationalize that being a bully might be appropriate in some circumstances, given the right target.)
Now I'm almost sorry I didn't see your comment while it had neutral karma. I believe I wouldn't have upvoted it, but that's exactly the kind of judgement I don't trust.
Okay, I generally have a rule to never upvote comments that speak about their own karma ("it may get me downvoted"), so at least that would have stopped me, if nothing else.
Anyway... such drama... so meta... wow
Lukas' karma for the comment I responded to was quite negative when mine was neutral, as well (down to -5 at one point, if my memory serves me well, which is an iffy prospect). By turning Lukas into the underdog in this conversation (by identifying myself as a bully), I've changed people's perceptions of his comment, as well.
That part wasn't intentional, but in retrospect, it should have been an obvious side effect.
I actually inserted the "it may get me downvoted" as a signal, although I don't recall what the purpose of the signal was, and it's not obvious to me now. Pity.
What exactly is the point you are making here? If you disapprove of your own behavior, you should apologize to Lukas. If you don't disapprove of it, then if you are right, people might not be rationalizing if they conclude that being a bully might be appropriate in some cases.
Didn't I just say I was negotiating, rather than arguing? Quit looking for a point. Look instead for a purpose.
In one comment, I leverage a petty form of darks arts, with no karma penalty to myself, and a hefty cost to the person I targeted. In the next, I call myself out for doing so, and those who fell for it as well - with a pretty hefty karma penalty.
I'll dryly observe the amusement I find in a community which purports to be about becoming stronger getting rather huffy about having their weaknesses revealed to them. Which might suggest some of my purpose.