Vaniver comments on Open thread, Jan. 25 - Jan. 31, 2016 - Less Wrong

3 Post author: username2 25 January 2016 09:07PM

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Comment author: Vaniver 29 January 2016 04:12:19PM 1 point [-]

Is there a implication of ranking with the way the levels are numbered? Are Level 5 people "more advanced" than lower levels and should one strive to move up levels?

The linked post gives a brief overview. The higher levels are 'more advanced' in that there is an asymmetry; the level 5 can emulate a level 4 more easily than a level 4 can emulate a level 5. But that doesn't translate to 'more advanced' in all possible meanings. A relevant quote from the link:

Kegan likes to make the analogy of comparing drivers who can drive a stick-shift with drivers who only drive an automatic. Can we say that someone is a “better driver” simply because they can drive a stick?

Comment author: Lumifer 29 January 2016 04:37:26PM 1 point [-]

So the implication is that's a straight IQ ladder, then. My original objection stands.

Comment author: Vaniver 29 January 2016 04:41:06PM 1 point [-]

My experience is that it's related to, but distinct from, g. High g and more mature age make the higher levels easier but don't create them on their own.

Comment author: Lumifer 29 January 2016 04:51:22PM *  0 points [-]

Why would a high-IQ level 4 person have trouble emulating level 5? See e.g. Sokal, etc.

ETA: I looked through the linked article and I stick by my impression that this is a straightforward IQ ladder modified by "maturity" (appropriate socio-emotional development, I guess?) In particular, I expect that levels have pretty hard IQ requirements, e.g. a person with the IQ of 80 just won't make it to Level 4.

Comment author: waveman 29 January 2016 11:39:34PM 3 points [-]

I think it is partly linked to IQ. I agree that there are probably limits to the levels people at low IQs can achieve,

But there is also a development process that takes time. Few teenagers, no matter how smart, are at level 5 Think by analogy that few 15 year old people have mastered quantum field theory. No matter how smart you are it takes time

Sokal is emulating level 3 people who think they are level 5. These people are anti-modern not post-modern. Most post-modernists are at level 3 as far as I can tell. I have been trawling through their works to assess this.

A level 5 physicist might be someone like say Robert Laughlin a Nobel Physicist who wrote a book "A Different Universe" questioning how fundamental 'fundamental' physics is. He has mastered modernist physics and is now building on this. This is very different from a Deepak Chopra type who doesn't even get to first base in this enterprise.

Comment author: Vaniver 29 January 2016 05:15:05PM 1 point [-]

I don't think Sokal is an example of systems of systems thinking. (The post-modernist label is not a particularly useful one; here it means the level after the modernist level, and is only partly connected to other things called post-modernist.)

Why would a high-IQ person have trouble emulating someone of the opposite sex? (There doesn't appear to be the same asymmetry--both men and women seem bad at modeling each other--but hopefully this will point out the sort of features that might be relevant.)