Alicorn comments on The "Intuitions" Behind "Utilitarianism" - Less Wrong

29 Post author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 28 January 2008 04:29PM

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Comment author: gwern 24 February 2012 02:32:24AM 4 points [-]

If such actions get officially endorsed as being moral, isn't that going to have consequences which mean the torture won't be a one-off event?

Why would it?

And I don't think LeGuin's story is good - it's classic LeGuin, by which I mean enthymematic, question-begging, emotive substitution for thought, which annoyed me so much that I wrote my own reply.

Comment author: Alicorn 24 February 2012 03:46:42AM 6 points [-]

I've read your story three times now and still don't know what's going on in it. Can I have it in the form of an explanation instead of a story?

Comment author: gwern 24 February 2012 03:58:59AM 0 points [-]

Sure, but you'll first have to provide an explanation of LeGuin's.

Comment author: Alicorn 24 February 2012 04:16:34AM *  2 points [-]

There is this habitation called Omelas in which things are pretty swell for everybody except one kid who is kept in lousy conditions; by unspecified mechanism this is necessary for things to be pretty swell for everybody else in Omelas. Residents are told about the kid when they are old enough. Some of them do not approve of the arrangement and emigrate.

Something of this form about your story will do.

Comment author: gwern 24 February 2012 04:21:52AM 1 point [-]

There is this city called Acre where things are pretty swell except for this one guy who has a lousy job; by a well-specified mechanism, his job makes him an accessary to murders which preserve the swell conditions. He understands all this and accepts the overwhelmingly valid moral considerations, but still feels guilty - in any human paradise, there will be a flaw.

Comment author: Alicorn 24 February 2012 04:37:42AM 2 points [-]

Since the mechanism is well-specified, can you specify it?

Comment author: gwern 24 February 2012 05:02:53AM 0 points [-]

I thought it was pretty clear in the story. It's not easy coming up with analogues to crypto, and there's probably holes in my lock scheme, but good enough for a story.

Comment author: Alicorn 24 February 2012 05:11:02AM *  4 points [-]

I thought it was pretty clear in the story.

Please explain it anyway.

(It never goes well for me when I reply to this sort of thing with snark. So I edited away a couple of drafts of snark.)

Comment author: [deleted] 24 February 2012 05:37:14AM 4 points [-]

It's a prediction market where the predictions (that we care about, anyway) are all of the form "I bet X that Y will die on date Z."

Comment author: Alicorn 24 February 2012 05:55:27AM *  3 points [-]

Okay, and I imagine this would incentivize assassins, but how is this helping society be pretty swell for most people, and what is the one guy's job exactly? (Can you not bet on the deaths of arbitrary people, only people it is bad to have around? Is the one guy supposed to determine who it's bad to have around or something and only allow bets on those folks? How does he determine that, if so?)

Comment author: hairyfigment 24 February 2012 06:11:41AM 8 points [-]

"Omelas" contrasts the happiness of the citizens with the misery of the child. I couldn't tell from your story that the tradesman felt unusually miserable, nor that the other people of his city felt unusually happy. Nor do I know how this affects your reply to LeGuin, since I can't detect the reply.