MileyCyrus comments on The "Intuitions" Behind "Utilitarianism" - Less Wrong

29 Post author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 28 January 2008 04:29PM

You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.

Comments (193)

Sort By: Old

You are viewing a single comment's thread. Show more comments above.

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 28 January 2008 06:02:24PM 13 points [-]

Eliezer, to be clear, do you still think that 3^^^3 people having momentary eye irritations--from dust-specs--is worth torturing a single person for 50 years, or is there a possibility that you did the math incorrectly for that example?

No. I used a number large enough to make math unnecessary.

I specified the dust specks had no distant consequences (no car crashes etc.) in the original puzzle.

Unless the torture somehow causes Vast consequences larger than the observable universe, or the suicide of someone who otherwise would have been literally immortal, it doesn't matter whether the torture has distant consequences or not.

I confess I didn't think of the suicide one, but I was very careful to choose an example that didn't involve actually killing anyone, because there someone was bound to point out that there was a greater-than-tiny probability that literal immortality is possible and would otherwise be available to that person.

So I will specify only that the torture does not have any lasting consequences larger than a moderately sized galaxy, and then I'm done. Nothing bound by lightspeed limits in our material universe can morally outweigh 3^^^3 of anything noticeable. You'd have to leave our physics to do it.

You know how some people's brains toss out the numbers? Well, when you're dealing with a number like 3^^^3 in a thought experiment, you can toss out the event descriptions. If the thing being multiplied by 3^^^3 is good, it wins. If the thing being multiplied by 3^^^3 is bad, it loses. Period. End of discussion. There are no natural utility differences that large.

Comment author: Douglas_Reay 24 February 2012 01:51:08AM 4 points [-]

Unless the torture somehow causes Vast consequences larger than the observable universe, or the suicide of someone who otherwise would have been literally immortal, it doesn't matter whether the torture has distant consequences or not.

What about the consequences of the precedent set by the person making the decision that it is ok to torture an innocent person, in such circumstances? If such actions get officially endorsed as being moral, isn't that going to have consequences which mean the torture won't be a one-off event?

There's a rather good short story about this, by Ursula K LeGuin:

The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas

Comment author: MileyCyrus 24 February 2012 07:54:07AM -2 points [-]

America kills 20,000 people/yr via air pollution.. Are you ready to walk away?

Comment author: thomblake 24 February 2012 04:29:55PM 3 points [-]

It's worth noting, for 'number of people killed' statistics, that all of those people were going to die anyway, and many of them might have been about to die for some other reason.

Society kills about 56 million people each year from spending resources on things other than solving the 'death' problem.

Comment author: [deleted] 24 February 2012 06:01:38PM 4 points [-]

that all of those people were going to die anyway

Some of whom several decades later. (Loss of QALYs would be a better statistic, and I think it would be non-negligible.)