DanArmak comments on Is altruistic deception really necessary? Social activism and the free market - Less Wrong

3 Post author: PhilGoetz 26 February 2016 06:38AM

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Comment author: DanArmak 27 February 2016 12:06:36PM 0 points [-]

I had in mind lies that were intended to be acted on, to further my cause.

For instance, suppose my cause is to prevent the growth of a hole in the ozone layer. I tell people they must stop using CFCs. Actually it would be enough to limit the use of CFCs below some sustainable limit. But not everyone is going to listen to me, and I need to offset their CFC-use with even lower levels of usage from my followers. So I lie to my followers and tell them everyone in the world must stop using CFCs absolutely for the ozone hole to mend. That's a lie I want them to act on.

There are other kinds of reasons why one might lie in the service of a cause, where my logic doesn't hold. For instance, suppose my cause is to win a war. I need to convince my people to keep fighting and not accept the enemy's armistice terms. So I lie to them, saying the enemy is building a magical doomsday weapon that can strike our people from afar, and only taking over the enemy's lands can prevent its construction. After we win the war, my people torture and kill many of the enemy population because they refuse to reveal the location of the doomsday weapon I made up.

In this case, I didn't want people to actually act on the lie; I just wanted its side effect of making them fight in my war.

There are other cases. For example, the main supporters of my cause happen to come from the Purple Tribe, whose religion says the germ theory of disease is false. I know they're wrong, but to gain their support for my cause, I must lie and publicly say they are right. Then they help me win my cause, while I help them stop effective disease prevention measures - a successful alliance.

Comment author: Torchlight_Crimson 02 March 2016 02:37:52AM 2 points [-]

In this case, I didn't want people to actually act on the lie

Unfortunately, if your lie is successful people will act on it anyway.

Comment author: Old_Gold 28 February 2016 07:04:34AM 2 points [-]

For instance, suppose my cause is to prevent the growth of a hole in the ozone layer. I tell people they must stop using CFCs.

Well, that raises issues about just how serious a threat was the "hole in the ozone layer", and how much if anything it had to do with CFCs.

Comment author: DanArmak 28 February 2016 09:20:51AM 0 points [-]

Suppose for the sake of the example that it was a huge threat, caused purely by CFCs, but limiting CFCs (instead of stopping using them entirely) would have been enough to resolve the issue.