hairyfigment comments on Open Thread Feb 29 - March 6, 2016 - Less Wrong

4 Post author: Elo 28 February 2016 10:11PM

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Comment author: hairyfigment 11 March 2016 08:02:33AM 0 points [-]

Glad you asked, Eugine:

The party denies that it has any official connection to Neo-Nazism. Although it uses the Roman salute, a salute used by the Italian Fascist and German National Socialist movements, it claims to draw its inspiration in this primarily from the 4th of August Regime established by Ioannis Metaxas...Likewise, the Golden Dawn's meander symbol, while sometimes compared to the National Socialist Swastika, is according to Golden Dawn a symbol drawn from Greek art, which the party sees as representing bravery and eternal struggle.[18][128]

Ilias Kasidiaris, a spokesman for Golden Dawn, wrote an article that was published in Golden Dawn magazine on 20 April 2011, in which he said, "What would the future of Europe and the whole modern world be like if World War II hadn't stopped the renewing route of National Socialism? Certainly, fundamental values which mainly derive from ancient Greek culture, would be dominant in every state and would define the fate of peoples. Romanticism as a spiritual movement and classicism would prevail against the decadent subculture that corroded the white man. Extreme materialism would have been discarded, giving its place to spiritual exaltation". In the same article, Adolf Hitler is characterized as a "great social reformer" and "military genius".[129]

In an article published in 1987 in the Golden Dawn magazine titled "Hitler for 1000 years", its editor Michaloliakos [see below] showed his support for Nazism and white supremacy.[130] Specifically he wrote, "We are the faithful soldiers of the National Socialist idea and nothing else" and "[...] WE EXIST, and continue the battle, the battle for the final victory of our race".[130] He ends the article by writing "1987, 42 years later, with our thought and soul given to the last great battle, with our thought and soul given to the black and red banners, with our thought and soul given to the memory of our great Leader, we raise our right hand up, we salute the Sun and with the courage, that is compelled by our military honor and our National Socialist duty we shout full of passion, faith to the future and our visions: HEIL HITLER!".[130]

...The founder of the party, Nikolaos Michaloliakos, appeared to give a Nazi salute in the Athens city council. He claims that it was merely "the salute of the national youth organisation of Ioannis Metaxas".[128][136]

Of course, society normally finds it easy to recognize and ostracize such blatantly dishonest Nazism. It doesn't create any actual confusion - unless people have gone out of their way to weaken society's immune system, eg by deliberately signalling Nazism when the reality is more obscure.

Comment author: Torchlight_Crimson 12 March 2016 01:34:37AM 2 points [-]

Of course, society normally finds it easy to recognize and ostracize such blatantly dishonest Nazism.

What do you mean by "normally" and can you find any examples of society that actually operated like you describe? Keep in mind the word "Nazi" was already being applied to anything and everything the speaker disliked as early as 1942.

Comment author: skeptical_lurker 11 March 2016 09:11:59AM 1 point [-]

It doesn't create any actual confusion - unless people have gone out of their way to weaken society's immune system, eg by deliberately signalling Nazism when the reality is more obscure.

I think it weakens the immune system more when anyone who isn't in favour of completely unrestricted immigration gets called a Nazi. And there's a failure mode where constantly calling people Nazis (or sexists/racists) makes them more favourable towards Nazis (the theory is that on a subconcious level they think 'if I'm a Nazi, maybe Nazism isn't so bad).

Comment author: Torchlight_Crimson 12 March 2016 01:32:37AM 1 point [-]

(the theory is that on a subconcious level they think 'if I'm a Nazi, maybe Nazism isn't so bad).

Or the more straightforward, if anyone proposing sensible immigration policy gets called a Nazi, eventually people conclude that "Nazi" means someone in favor of sensible immigration policy.

Comment author: skeptical_lurker 13 March 2016 06:02:34PM 1 point [-]

I agree, and I am trying to use words in a precise manner. Trump is not a Nazi. The Golden Dawn are.

Comment author: Torchlight_Crimson 13 March 2016 06:33:44PM 1 point [-]

LOL. Seriously, do you have any more evidence beyond "their symbol sotra looks like a swastika". How about you try looking for the factions in Greece using Nazi-style tactics, like say arresting their opponents on vague trumped up charges. Hint: it's not Golden Dawn.

Comment author: skeptical_lurker 13 March 2016 07:53:27PM 0 points [-]

Try the entire wikipedia page on them! Take these bits for instance:

Scholars and media have described it as neo-Nazi[4][13][14] and fascist,[5][15][16] though the group rejects these labels.[17] Members have expressed admiration of the former Greek dictator Ioannis Metaxas of the 4th of August Regime (1936–1941).[18] They have also made use of Nazi symbolism, and have praised figures of Nazi Germany in the past.[19][20][21] According to academic sources, the group is racist and xenophobic,[22][23] while the party's leader has openly identified it as nationalist and racist.[24]

On 23 July 2012, Artemis Matthaiopoulos, a member of Golden Dawn, was elected as MP for the town of Serres. The website left.gr (associated with Syriza), reported that Matthaiopoulos was the frontman of the Nazi punk band "Pogrom" and pointed to the band's song "Auschwitz" with antisemitic lyrics such as "fuck Anne Frank" and "Juden raus" ("Jews out").[142][143]

Now, I'm not endorsing the other factions, some of whom may well be Stalinists or terrorists. It is possible for there to be extremists on both the left and the right.

I know that 'Nazi' may be overused, but you surely must see that in this specific instance, that is what the Golden Dawn are.

Unless the entire wikipedia page and the sources are all fraudulent...

Comment author: Torchlight_Crimson 13 March 2016 11:57:15PM *  4 points [-]

Scholars and media have described it as neo-Nazi[4][13][14] and fascist,[5][15][16]

Well, everyone to the right of Stalin has been described as neo-Nazi by scholars.

though the group rejects these labels.[17]

I guess there goes your "explicitly endorse Nazism" claim.

I know that 'Nazi' may be overused, but you surely must see that in this specific instance, that is what the Golden Dawn are.

Weren't people saying the same thing about the National Front ~20 years ago?

Comment author: skeptical_lurker 14 March 2016 07:42:27AM 0 points [-]

I guess there goes your "explicitly endorse Nazism" claim.

I said if "significant members explicitly endorse Nazism", and in this case it seems at least one elected official does, even if the group doesn't.

Weren't people saying the same thing about the National Front ~20 years ago?

Perhaps. I'm not an expert on the history of European politics.

Comment author: Lumifer 14 March 2016 02:51:24PM *  1 point [-]

at least one elected official does

That one -- the frontman of the Nazi punk band "Pogrom" -- right? So you're willing to stick a label onto a whole political party because someone from a punk band said controversial things and generally trolled the public?

Comment author: skeptical_lurker 14 March 2016 05:46:56PM -1 points [-]

Normally, no, I wouldn't take a punk band's politics seriously, but when the frontman of a Nazi punk band gets elected, that's different.

Plus, he's not the only one:

As depicted in a picture taken on 14 September 2012, Panagiotis Iliopoulos, another Golden Dawn MP, has a tattoo reading the Nazi greeting Sieg Heil.[139]

I mean, obviously a random member of a party's views do not represent the party, but when they are leaders or get elected, thats different.

Comment author: gjm 14 March 2016 02:32:14PM 0 points [-]

explicitly endorse Nazism

There's an ambiguity here. Suppose the official position of the Social Party for German National Workers is as follows:

  • Germany needs to be a great power once more, and can only become so by military expansion, so that it can fulfil its destiny by ruling all Europe with a fist of iron.
  • Jews and Communists are responsible for most of the nation's ills and must be destroyed.
  • The Aryan race is superior to all others and must be favoured and kept pure.
  • Traditional views on sex and gender must be preserved for fear of moral degeneracy.
  • To achieve all these things, it is necessary for the nation's security forces to be able to know and control what everyone says and does.

... and suppose the SPGNW loudly proclaims "We have no sympathy with fascism or Nazism". The SPGNW explicitly endorses a big pile of key Nazi ideas, but it doesn't explicitly endorse the word "Nazism". What then? Personally I'd be happy saying that they explicitly endorse Nazism and are just lying about it.

I don't know enough about the Golden Dawn for my opinions on whether they're doing something similar to be worth much. But it's certainly possible a priori that they might be.

(Adopting this flag really doesn't seem like something a party fully committed to not endorsing Nazism would do. The resemblance isn't exactly subtle.)

Comment author: skeptical_lurker 14 March 2016 06:00:11PM *  1 point [-]

Personally I'd be happy saying that they explicitly endorse Nazism and are just lying about it.

I could argue over the semantics of 'explicitly' but basically they are Nazis whether they all admit it or not.

Traditional views on sex and gender must be preserved for fear of moral degeneracy.

I don't think they actually beleived this. Perhaps traditional views on sex and gender must be preserved to maintain the Aryan birthrate, but that's a little different - if premarital sex leads to lots of Aryan babies, I doubt they would object.

Interestingly, the leader of the SA was gay.

To achieve all these things, it is necessary for the nation's security forces to be able to know and control what everyone says and does.

Of course, modern day Germany does censor the internet for anti-migrant comments...

Comment author: Lumifer 14 March 2016 02:52:06PM 1 point [-]

fully committed to not endorsing Nazism

LOL

Comment author: Lumifer 14 March 2016 02:48:26PM -1 points [-]

I know that 'Nazi' may be overused, but you surely must see that in this specific instance, that is what the Golden Dawn are.

You did mention "using words precisely" at some point. If you still wish to do that, the word "Nazi" is a very specific word -- it refers to things associated with the National Socialist German Workers' Party. I am pretty sure members of Golden Dawn are not members of NSDAP as well.

A better word for you might be "fascist". It is more general -- there certainly were more fascists than nazis -- and describes a particular type of ideology (which originated in Italy, by the way).

The word "neo-nazi", in contemporary parlance, doesn't mean much beyond "I don't like these people".

Note that it's perfectly possible to be racist, xenophobic, nationalist, and anti-semitic and still not be a Nazi or a fascist.

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