RichardKennaway comments on In Praise of Boredom - Less Wrong

22 Post author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 18 January 2009 09:03AM

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Comment author: timtyler 13 June 2012 10:09:59AM *  -2 points [-]

No it doesn't. It tries to maximize fun. It might maximize entropy as a side effect, but saying that we act to maximize entropy is as ludicrous as saying cows act to maximize atmospheric methane content. You're confusing a side-effect with the real goal.

Really? How do you know that? Are plants trying to maximise "fun"? Is "fun" even a measurable quantity?

If "fun" is being maximised, why is there so much suffering in the world? If two systems are in contention, is it really the one that is having the most fun that will win? The "fun-as-maximand" theory seems trivially refuted by the facts.

"Fun" - if we are trying to treat the concept seriously - is better characterised as the proxy that brains use for the inclusive fitness of their associated organism.

There's a scientific literature on the subject of what God's utility function is. Entire books have been written about the topic. I'm familiar with this literature, are you?

Terms like "goals" and "maximization" only refer, in the literal sense, to the computations of consequentialist thinking beings (consequentialist in this case meaning a being that can forecast the future, not the moral theory). A goal is a forecast of the future a consequentialist assigns favorable utility to. Maximizing refers to a consequentialist that values a certain property in the future so much it assigns very favorable utility to increasing it as much as possible. This is the only appropriate time to literally use the terms "goal" and "maximize," all other times are metaphorical.

We had better talk about "optimization" then, or we will talk past each other.

Evolution and other trends do not literally maximize anything.

Really? How do you know that? Evolution is a gigantic optimization process with a maximand. You claimed above that it is "fun" - and my claim is that it is entropy. As I say, there's a substantial scientific literature on the topic - have you looked at it?

Comment author: RichardKennaway 13 June 2012 11:47:07AM 3 points [-]

Evolution is a gigantic optimization process with a maximand

Success for the fox is failure for the rabbit; success for the rabbit is failure for the fox. What is the maximand?

Comment author: TheOtherDave 13 June 2012 01:32:56PM 0 points [-]

OTOH, as rabbits become better fox-evaders, foxes become better rabbit-hunters. If there exists some thing X that fox-evasion and rabbit-hunting have in common, it's possible (I would even say likely) that X is increasing throughout this process.

Comment author: timtyler 13 June 2012 11:22:36PM 1 point [-]

Increasing != maximising, though. Methane is increasing in both cases - but evolution doesn't maximise methane production.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 14 June 2012 02:36:25AM 0 points [-]

Not sure why it's relevant, but certainly true.

Comment author: timtyler 13 June 2012 11:18:03PM *  0 points [-]

So: entropy, as far as we can tell. See the works of Dewar, referenced here. Or for a popular version, try: Whitfield, John Survival of the Likeliest? for a popular version from someone other than me.