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Eugine_Nier comments on Vegetarianism - Less Wrong Discussion

29 Post author: Raemon 24 December 2010 04:57AM

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Comment author: Raemon 24 December 2010 05:54:04AM 3 points [-]

Why?

(I'm not doubting you have a good reason, but the weight of the word "suffer" is essential to what morality's about IMO. I think it's valuable to be able to explain your views without using the word, but not necessary. If necessary "experience pain" works just as well.)

Comment author: Eugine_Nier comment score below threshold [+] (8 children)

Comment author: Raemon 24 December 2010 06:50:26AM * 2 points [-]

Could you clarify what moral system you use without using pain, suffering or related words? (I honestly cannot think of a way to do so for mine, but that may just be me being new to the Taboo concept).

If your moral system doesn't care about suffering at all (human or otherwise) than there is no contradiction.

Comment author: wedrifid 24 December 2010 07:21:58AM 3 points [-]

I honestly cannot think of a way to do so for mine, but that may just be me being new to the Taboo concept

Not at all. It would more sense to taboo 'morality' than 'pain', expressing everything in respect to preferences. "Pain" is fairly clear.

Comment author: grouchymusicologist 24 December 2010 06:22:52AM * 0 points [-]

The thrust of my reply to these questions is that we don't need to have fully general answers to them in order to be pretty sure -- i.e., sure enough to stop doing it -- that killing animals and eating them is wrong. All you need to know is that (a) you and your fellow humans experience the thing we call pain, (b) that it is wrong to cause other humans needless pain, and (c) that other animals are not sufficiently neurologically different from humans that you can be sure that killing them doesn't cause them the same pain that it would be wrong to cause a human.

Comment author: wedrifid 24 December 2010 07:23:25AM 3 points [-]

Your conclusion does not actually follow from the listed premises.

Comment author: grouchymusicologist 24 December 2010 07:25:13AM 1 point [-]

Then I'm either missing something or have explained inadequately. Please elaborate.

Comment author: wedrifid 24 December 2010 08:19:25AM 1 point [-]

It is hard to explain a non sequitur. And the worse the reasoning used the harder it is to give an explanation more precise than "WTF? Um, no.". Fortunately your argument is not that bad - it is just missing a premise "it is wrong to cause pain to animals".

Comment author: grouchymusicologist 24 December 2010 04:53:34PM 5 points [-]

That's the premise I am trying not to use, because I don't think there is a supportable reason to draw a distinction between humans and animals when it comes to the acceptability of causing them pain and suffering. Let me rephrase.

I think it's wrong to needlessly cause the-thing-we-know-as-pain to any creature capable of experiencing it. We know this includes humans, because we ourselves feel pain and can communicate that fact to others. We have every reason to think this includes a whole lot of non-human animals, because their physiology and behavior are similar enough to ours that it is very likely.

While we can't live up to this moral guideline in every respect, some things -- like not killing animals to eat them -- are low-hanging fruit.

Comment author: fortyeridania 24 December 2010 02:20:07PM 1 point [-]

What's the "same pain"? The same degree of pain? The same type? I think this might be a sticking point in your argument, along with the one wedrifrid has pointed out (unless it turns out that the answer to my question also clears up wedrifid's objection).

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