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mwengler comments on Vegetarianism - Less Wrong Discussion

29 Post author: Raemon 24 December 2010 04:57AM

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Comment author: mwengler 24 December 2010 06:53:44PM 0 points [-]

My intuition is that your view of animal happiness is closer to the truth than the vegetarians. First, I consider research on happiness even in humans, especially "Stumbling on Happiness" which book I highly recommend. Even for humans, happiness does not generally correlate with what you or I think would make you happy. A compelling example: conjoined twins are generally as happy as "singleton" (i.e. normal) people, but virtually no singleton would guess that intuitively. Generally, we adjust to the status quo across gigantically broad ranges: those who live in the slums of Bombay are not clearly happier or less happy than those of us living in mansions.

So I would imagine chickens in ooky coops, cows in stockyards, like humans, adjust to the mean. Then have their moments of pleasure and moments of pain primarily as variations around that.

And the terror or fear at slaughter? It seems very unlikely that they spend much time dreading it, as my dog trainer said to a couple who was sure the dog was punishing them for going out by pooping on the floor: "I think dogs live more in the moment than that." And I expect that for cows, pigs, and certainly chickens.

So far, we live in only one world of a possible MWI. So far, mammals are born, they live, they experience emotions positive and negative, and they die. How much sense does it make to adopt a moral system which thinks we are wrong for just doing what nature has very many animals do for millions of years?

Comment author: Costanza 24 December 2010 07:06:12PM 14 points [-]

One nitpick:

How much sense does it make to adopt a moral system which thinks we are wrong for just doing what nature has very many animals do for millions of years?

Maybe a lot. Nature is fucked up. For example, remember Charles Darwin's parasitic wasps. The hell with nature.

Generally a very insightful post, though.

Comment author: Broggly 29 December 2010 10:54:13PM 1 point [-]

I for one like to bring up such tasteful subjects as traumatic insemination, "homoerotic necrophillia in the mallard duck", and baby eating.

Comment author: XiXiDu 24 December 2010 07:52:26PM *  6 points [-]

And I expect that for cows, pigs, and certainly chickens.

Certainly chickens? Do you think birds are generally less intelligent/self-aware than mammals?

Some birds, especially corvids and parrots, are among the most intelligent animal species; a number of bird species have been observed manufacturing and using tools, and many social species exhibit cultural transmission of knowledge across generations. Wikipedia

Also see the following links that indicate how similar/intelligent some other species might be:

So far, mammals are born, they live, they experience emotions positive and negative, and they die. How much sense does it make to adopt a moral system which thinks we are wrong for just doing what nature has very many animals do for millions of years?

Morality is not a prescriptive natural law. There is no imperative here. Personally I want to minimize suffering as much as I can. That means that I am going to kill an (subjectively) inferior being to survive. But I am living in a western country, having enough money to effort a healthy diet without inflicting additional suffering for the pleasure of eating meat. Surely if you assign higher utility to eating meat than negative utility to killing other beings, that's completely rational. But you seem to be committing the naturalistic fallacy here.

Comment author: wedrifid 30 December 2010 03:22:34AM 3 points [-]

So far, we live in only one world of a possible MWI.

I nominate this for the title of "Most Gratuitous Quantum Mechanics Reference of the Month".

Comment author: datadataeverywhere 26 December 2010 05:57:54AM 1 point [-]

I think that what you bring up is a good reason to avoid using happiness as the sole or majority measure for utility or moral value.

Because I doubt you would be at all willing to relocate to the slums of Bombay, even knowing this, and you shouldn't.

Likewise, swine might get used to (and be as happy) living practically swimming in their own feces and stillborn siblings, but to the extent that we realize that they would really rather not, we shouldn't force them to. If they are really so mindless as to be indifferent, I don't see that we should care, but I don't think that's the case.

Also, a nitpick; research shows that happiness isn't correlated with all those things we think make us happy above a threshold. People who starve on a regular basis, or are continually abused really are less happy than the rest of us. We don't fully adapt to regular torment. The threshold is perhaps shockingly low, but shouldn't be ignored.