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drnickbone comments on Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality discussion thread, part 11 - Less Wrong Discussion

6 Post author: Oscar_Cunningham 17 March 2012 09:41AM

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Comment author: drnickbone 23 March 2012 04:11:04PM 2 points [-]

Much worse, Harry sacrifices Hermione to achieve a higher level of utility (probably something involving 3^^^3). Horrible thought, but his dark side could do it, and he's just gone to the dark side for a solution.

Comment author: wedrifid 24 March 2012 08:06:01AM 3 points [-]

Much worse, Harry sacrifices Hermione to achieve a higher level of utility (probably something involving 3^^^3). Horrible thought, but his dark side could do it, and he's just gone to the dark side for a solution.

That isn't a scary thought at all. In fact, in the absence of a clever solution it is the best option available.

Sometimes you just have to lose because there is no real option. If it wasn't in a story with Harry as the protagonist it would almost certainly be best to not start a war with the entire power structure to try to save her. Well, not yet.

Let Hermione go. Go research magic. Take over the world. Rescue Hermione. Use advanced magic and an FAI to heal the damage done to Hermione.

Comment author: drnickbone 26 March 2012 05:07:19PM *  -1 points [-]

Rescue Hermione. Use advanced magic and an FAI to heal the damage done to Hermione.

The "scary" or "horrible" thought is if he can't do this part. (Which to me looks plausible: if a 12 year-old girl gets sent to Azkaban then she almost certainly can't recover.) The taboo tradeoff would then look like this:

Option A : Rescue Hermione, but with some big utility downside.

Option B: Don't rescue Hermione, ever, but with some big utility upside.

Incidentally, one thing that no-one - I think - has mentioned is whether Muggle law carries any weight at all in this, since what Malfoy and the Wizengamot are voting for is a grotesque form of child abuse (and a huge taboo violation in Muggle society). Can they just ignore the civil law like that and get away with it : what if it led to a breakdown in the edict of secrecy (with Harry helping)? Are Hermione's parents going to be memory-charmed or fobbed off with some random story to shut them up?

Wouldn't this also be a form of taboo tradeoff - Lucius et al following through on Wizard law to avenge a blood debt vs keeping Magical Society secret? Or (from Harry's side) - breaking the edict of secrecy to get Hermione released vs Keeping it for the greater good (e.g. prevention of war).

Comment author: pedanterrific 26 March 2012 05:54:58PM 1 point [-]

Harry's Muggle parents could not authorize it because they were Muggles, and Muggles had around the same legal standing as children or kittens: they were cute, so if you tortured them in public you could get arrested, but they weren't people. Some reluctant provision had been made for recognizing the parents of Muggleborns as human in a limited sense, but Harry's adoptive parents did not fall into that legal category.

I kinda doubt wizards in general care overmuch about Muggle law.

Comment author: drnickbone 26 March 2012 06:47:26PM 1 point [-]

But presumably they do care about rampaging Muggles on witch-hunts?

That hasn't happened for about three hundred years. But then, by a mysterious coincidence, neither has torturing little children into insanity to appease the blood lust of the "nobility", something which is likely to get those pitchforks sharpened pretty damned fast.

"She is too young! Her mind would not withstand it! Not in three centuries has such a thing been done in Britain!"

Secrecy about magic does seem to matter to these folks, otherwise why go to all the effort? Possibly because in an all-out war the wizards risk losing. They have less magic now, the Muggles have much nastier weapons, and not all wizards would fight on the same side. The magical world would be itself deeply divided if torturing a child proved to be the causus belli. Quirrell for one thinks they'd lose (Chapter 34):

"Your parents nearly lost against half a hundred, who thought to take this country alive! How quickly would they have been crushed by a foe more numerous than they, a foe that cared for nothing but their destruction?...

And if some still greater enemy rose against us in a war of extermination, then only a united magical world could survive."