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Tenoke comments on Open thread, July 29-August 4, 2013 - Less Wrong Discussion

3 Post author: David_Gerard 29 July 2013 10:26PM

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Comment author: Tenoke 31 July 2013 11:12:29AM *  13 points [-]

After a short discussion on irc regarding basilisks I declared that if anyone has any basilisks that they consider dangerous or potentially real in anyway to please private message me about them. I am extending this invitation here as well. Furthermore, I will be completely at fault for any harm caused to me by learning about it. Please don't let my potential harm discourage you.

Comment author: wedrifid 01 August 2013 06:08:44AM 11 points [-]

After a short discussion on irc regarding basilisks I declared that if anyone has any basilisks that they consider dangerous or potentially real in anyway to please private message me about them. I am extending this invitation here as well. Furthermore, I will be completely at fault for any harm caused to me by learning about it.

We almost need a list for this. This makes half a dozen people I've seen making the same declaration.

Please don't let my potential harm discourage you.

Without endorsing the reasoning at all I note that those with information suppressing inclinations put only a little weight on harm caused to you and even less on your preferences. If they believe that the basilisk is worthy of the name they will expect giving it to you to result in you spreading it to others and thereby causing all sorts of unspeakable misery and soforth. It'd be like infecting a bat with ebola.

Comment author: pinyaka 31 July 2013 03:38:38PM 5 points [-]

You are using basilisk in a manner that I don't understand. I assume you're not asking if anyone has a lizard that will literally turn you into stone, so what does basilisk mean in this context?

Comment author: Tenoke 31 July 2013 03:43:49PM *  6 points [-]

Memetic/Information Hazards - the term comes from here. Basically anything that makes you significantly worse off after you know it than before. Giving someone wrong instructions for how to build a bomb wouldn't count for example as I can just never build a bomb or just use other instructions etc.

Warning: Could be dangerous to look into it

Comment author: Lumifer 31 July 2013 04:44:58PM 6 points [-]

Memetic/Information Hazards

They really should be called Medusas -- since it's you looking at them, not them looking at you.

Comment author: Rukifellth 31 July 2013 11:39:24PM 2 points [-]

I think they both need to make eye contact.

Comment author: Tenoke 31 July 2013 05:06:17PM -1 points [-]

Yup, Medusa is what some blogposts use to describe them.

Comment author: Rukifellth 03 August 2013 01:50:51AM 0 points [-]

Which blogposts are these?

Comment author: HungryHippo 31 July 2013 04:47:28PM 1 point [-]

Do you of anyone claiming to be in possession of such a fact?

Comment author: RichardKennaway 01 August 2013 11:48:48AM 3 points [-]

Eliezer is in possession of a fact that he considers to be highly dangerous to anyone who knows it, and who does not have sufficient understanding of exotic decision theory to avoid being vulnerable to it. This is the original basilisk that drew LessWrong's attention to the idea. Whether he is right is disputed (but the disputation cannot take place here).

In HPMOR, he has fictionally presented another basilisk: Harry cannot tell some other wizards, including Dumbledore, about the true Patronus spell, because that knowledge would render them incapable of casting the Patronus at all, leaving them vulnerable to having their minds eaten by Dementors.

Comment author: Tenoke 31 July 2013 05:05:12PM -1 points [-]

I know some basilisks, yes. Although, there is nothing I regard as actually dangerous. However, sharing things like this publicly is considered bad etiquette on LessWrong.

Comment author: pinyaka 02 August 2013 07:08:57PM 1 point [-]

If it's not dangerous, how does it constitute a hazard?

Comment author: MixedNuts 01 August 2013 09:58:35AM -1 points [-]

Can you send me yours? Please PM me here or on IRC. I already know the most famous one here.

Comment author: Rukifellth 31 July 2013 11:57:41PM *  0 points [-]

I tried to rot13 my previous discussion and was only mocked. The attitude towards basilisks seems to be one of glib reassurance.

Comment author: wedrifid 01 August 2013 06:14:05AM *  1 point [-]

I tried to rot13 my previous discussion and was only mocked. The attitude towards basilisks seems to be one of glib reassurance.

Not just glib reassurance. There is also the outright mockery of those who advocate taking (the known pseudo-examples of) them seriously.

Comment author: Rukifellth 01 August 2013 10:40:13AM 0 points [-]

I can't imagine that anyone is advocating taking them seriously.

Comment author: Rukifellth 31 July 2013 11:28:48PM 0 points [-]

I know one.

Also I think you're missing the word "know"

Comment author: Username 31 July 2013 08:24:41PM *  3 points [-]

Could you post how many you receive and your realistic estimation on whether any are actually dangerous? Without specifics of course. (If you take these things seriously, I suppose you should have a dead-man's switch.)

Though for the record I think the LW policy on not being able to discuss basilisks is ridiculous - a big banner at the top of a post saying for example 'Warning - Information Hazard to those who have suffered anxiety at the thought of AI acting acausally' should be fine. I strongly disagree with outright banning of discussion about specific basilisks/medusas, especially seeing as LW is one of the only places where one could have a meaningful conversation about them.

Comment author: HungryHippo 31 July 2013 04:46:10PM *  1 point [-]

Please let us know if you recieve anything interesting.

Comment author: Rukifellth 31 July 2013 11:24:33PM *  0 points [-]

You magnificent, magnanimous son of a bitch.

Comment author: Benito 31 July 2013 11:29:39PM 3 points [-]

Well that escalated quickly.

Comment author: Rukifellth 31 July 2013 11:33:19PM 1 point [-]

I think a level of gaiety and excitement is appropriate given the subject.

Comment author: sixes_and_sevens 31 July 2013 02:00:14PM 0 points [-]

Can you tell us what you're trying to achieve with this?

Comment author: Tenoke 31 July 2013 02:16:39PM 5 points [-]

Interested in the responses since I actually think I can learn some useful things if anyone actually shares something good. Also, I assign significantly less than 1% chance that anyone will actually tell me anything 'dangerous' - for example I think roko's is as dangerous as pie. I don't plan to release memetic hazards on unsuspecting citizens if that's your fear.

Comment author: sixes_and_sevens 31 July 2013 02:38:54PM 0 points [-]

It's more that soliciting information hazards seems like really odd behaviour. Even if no-one sends you an Interactive Suicide Rock, you might still receive some horrible or annoying stuff you don't want to be carrying around in your head.

I'm really interested to find out what, if anything, people send you, but I'm not sure I want to know exactly what they are.

Comment author: Tenoke 31 July 2013 02:53:22PM 3 points [-]

I'm really interested to find out what, if anything, people send you, but I'm not sure I want to know exactly what they are.

Other people expressed a similar view and since I don't mind, I can at least help with satisfying people's curiosity in a way that would cause minimal harm. However, I have found nothing worth talking about after some fairly extensive google searches so I am currently trying to think if there is anyone knowledgeable that I can e-mail (already have a few people on the list) or if there are any good search terms that I haven't tried yet.

Comment author: sixes_and_sevens 31 July 2013 03:09:46PM 1 point [-]

It's probably worth clarifying what you consider a basilisk, as that might reduce any unpleasant-yet-irrelevant submissions.

Comment author: David_Gerard 31 July 2013 10:02:16PM -1 points [-]

The Motif of Harmful Sensation is a common fictional trope, but of real-life examples there are pretty much 0. (Excepting e.g. a subject with given mental susceptibilities such as depression or OCD.)

Comment author: FourFire 01 August 2013 09:08:54AM *  2 points [-]

I think that most of the general examples have been mentioned: Religion among others, which has the rather mildly harmful "fear of hell" and it's own propagation.

I think that any majorly harmful hazard which the general population was susceptible to would cause them to all shortly win darwin awards and remove themselves from the genepool.

As such we only have minority groups which are vulnerable to specific stimuli.

Comment author: Leonhart 05 August 2013 07:17:33PM *  1 point [-]

the rather mildly harmful "fear of hell"

The Typical Mind Fallacy is strong with this one.

remove themselves from the genepool

It's a good thing that isn't a mortal sin! Oh no wait.

Comment author: FourFire 06 August 2013 04:27:29PM *  0 points [-]

In what way are you attempting to counter my argument?

By 'harmful' I mean detrimental to procreation probability. I assume that highly fanatic religious people are likely to be in an environment with members of the opposite sex who are relatively equal in level of "indoctrination" and therefore are able to reproduce. though some religious practices are arguably detrimental to reproduction ability.

By 'remove themselves from the genepool' I mean, of course failure to produce offspring.

But please do let me know if you meant something else entirely.

Comment author: Leonhart 06 August 2013 10:28:28PM *  2 points [-]

Yes, we are completely talking past each other. In my framing "harmful" relates to number and intensity of suffering-moments, not reproductive success. I'm still kind of boggling that you think that's relevant.
You are correct to look to religion for archetypal information hazards; certain conceptions of sin, for example. Unlike Omega, sin cares about your decision theory; it applies to you if and only if you know it does, and the news is always bad. It's a cognitive event horizon. The Motif of Harmful Sensation is completely damn irrelevant. Information hazards don't make you go bleeble-bleeble-bleeble, they make you lie awake at night.

To be honest, I wasn't making sufficient effort to engage with you; I was venting irritation with this whole subthread, which largely consists of the emotionally privileged giving each other high-fives for getting lucky with their absurdity heuristic. You briefly became the embodiment of my irritation by describing the fear of hell as "mildly harmful", which it sort of isn't when you measure harm in actual caused fear. Some thoughts are black, and go nowhere, and can teach nothing, and any energy used to think them pours out of the universe and is gone. But I'm tapping out before I make a fool of myself further.

Comment author: FourFire 09 August 2013 10:05:33PM 0 points [-]

I'll agree that there was a mutual misunderstanding, my point has failed to be made. Ok. ;)

Comment author: gwern 31 July 2013 10:10:27PM 5 points [-]

(Excepting e.g. a subject with given mental susceptibilities such as depression or OCD.)

And even more obviously, epilepsy. Yet, I don't understand why you would except them.

'You see, X does not exist, since I choose to ignore all the cases in which X does exist; I hope you'll agree that this argument is watertight once you grant my premises.'

Comment author: asr 31 July 2013 10:29:49PM *  4 points [-]

I think David has a point here.

The cases you two have mentioned of sensory hazards all affect people who have identifiable susceptibilities that those people usually know about in advance and that affect relatively small minorities.

Somebody might have a high confidence that they are non-depressed, non-OCD, non-epileptic, etc. Are there examples of sensory hazards that apply to people who do not have a recognized medical problem?

Comment author: gwern 31 July 2013 11:18:26PM 4 points [-]

Are there examples of sensory hazards that apply to people who do not have a recognized medical problem?

But this is a different question. You have quietly redefined the question "are there harmful sensations to people?" - to which the answer is overwhelmingly, resoundingly, yes, there absolutely are - to 'are there harmful sensations to a newly redefined subset of people which we will immediately update if anyone produces further examples, so actually what I meant all along was "are there harmful sensations which we don't yet know about?"'

Or to put it more simply: 'Can you provide an example of a harmful sensation we don't yet know about?' Well... If I could produce a harmful sensation, you and David would simply say something like 'ah, well, I guess we now have a recognized medical problem, because look, we [commit suicide / collapse in convulsions / cease functioning / become obsessed with useless actions] if you expose us to X! That's a pretty serious psychiatric problem! But, are there examples of sensory hazards that apply to people who do not have a recognized medical problem?'

To which I can only shake my head no.

Comment author: asr 01 August 2013 04:56:19AM 2 points [-]

I hear you and I'm not trying to play the definition game or wriggle out of this. The way I conceptualized the question -- which I think the original poster had in mind and what I think is relevant to hazard risk assessment -- is more like one of these:

A) "What fraction of the public is seriously vulnerable to sensory hazards",

B) "Given that one knows one's medical history and demographics, what is the probability that there are sensory hazards one is vulnerable to but not already well aware of."

My hunch is that the answers are "less than 20%" and "close to zero." The example of epilepsy didn't shift my beliefs about either; epilepsy is rare and is rarely adult-onset for the non-elderly.

Comment author: gwern 01 August 2013 02:41:20PM 9 points [-]

B) "Given that one knows one's medical history and demographics, what is the probability that there are sensory hazards one is vulnerable to but not already well aware of."

So you're asking, what new medical sensory hazards may be developed in the future.

Well, the example of photosensitive epilepsy, where no trigger is mentioned which could have existed before the 19th century or so, suggests you should be very wary of thinking the risk of new sensory hazards is close to zero. Flash grenades are another visual example of a historically novel sensation which badly damages ordinary people. Infrasound is another plausible candidate for future deliberate or accidental weaponization. And so on...

epilepsy is rare and is rarely adult-onset for the non-elderly.

There, see, you're doing it again! Why would you exclude the elderly? Keep in mind that you yourself should aspire to become elderly one day (after all, consider the most likely alternative...).

Comment author: David_Gerard 02 August 2013 11:51:40AM *  -1 points [-]

Gwern, this thread is about the Basilisk. Conflating that with epilepsy is knowing equivocation. Don't be dense, thanks.

Comment author: gwern 02 August 2013 02:35:27PM *  0 points [-]

No denser than thou, David:

The Motif of Harmful Sensation is a common fictional trope, but of real-life examples there are pretty much 0. (Excepting e.g. a subject with given mental susceptibilities such as depression or OCD.)

Who was it who brought up the Motif of Harmful Sensation, which is not limited to Roko's basilisk? Who was it who brought up in order to define away examples of depression or OCD? Thou, David, thou.

Comment author: David_Gerard 02 August 2013 08:15:55PM -1 points [-]

The fictional trope is of one you wouldn't expect to be harmful. That's the literary point of it, and of the Basilisk: the surprise factor.

Comment author: gwern 02 August 2013 08:53:53PM 2 points [-]

The fictional trope is of one you wouldn't expect to be harmful.

And surely the animators who made that Pokemon episode expected it to be harmful and they made those kids seize because they're simply evil.

No denser than thou, David.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 02 August 2013 03:43:00PM 0 points [-]

How harmful does it have to be? Noise can be hard on people, and sufficiently loud noise causes permanent damage.

There's something interesting in here about what counts as a sensation for purposes of this discussion-- probably "a sensation which most people wouldn't expect to be harmful".

Comment author: drethelin 31 July 2013 01:25:13PM 0 points [-]

Some basilisks are potentially contagious.

Comment author: Tenoke 31 July 2013 01:27:22PM 8 points [-]

Please give me examples.

Comment author: drethelin 31 July 2013 08:22:34PM 7 points [-]

I think the most obvious semi-basilisk example is certain strains of religion. Insofar as it makes you believe you might go to hell, and all your friends are going to hell, these religions will make you feel bad an also make you want to spread them to everyone you know. Feeling bad is not the same as death or mental breakdown or other theoretical actual basilisk consequences but in essence there are meme complexes that contain elements that demand you spread the whole complex. If someone's in possession of such a concept but has defeated it or is in some way immune it may still be correct for them not to tell you for fear you are not and will spread it to others once it has worked it's will on you.

Comment author: Rukifellth 03 August 2013 02:32:39AM 0 points [-]

What do Christians do with the idea of "you're not spreading His Word fast enough"? It would be the same kind of scenario if there's nothing restraining Christian evangelical obligation.

Comment author: drethelin 03 August 2013 04:04:07PM 0 points [-]

Depends on the sect and person

Comment author: linkhyrule5 31 July 2013 09:54:20PM 1 point [-]

Ever seen one of those "If you don't forward this email to five friends, your (relation) will DIE!!1!!!one!" emails?

Comment author: Oscar_Cunningham 12 August 2014 06:30:11PM 0 points [-]

Did anything come of this in the end? Were any of the basilisks harmful or otherwise interesting?

Comment author: Tenoke 12 August 2014 07:07:57PM 0 points [-]

I got some responses, but I wouldn't say they were.