There are good reasons why misogyny is associated with the label. It worthwhile to distance oneself from that. For ethical reasons, for reasons of building a genuine connection and for general emotional wellbeing.
As Villiam_Bur said above, you can prove anything simply by selecting biased samples. Some PUAs definitely have unhelpful attitudes towards women, and PUA jargon clearly shows a legacy of bad attitudes from past "gurus". But AIUI, many PUA gurus nowadays understand that these are not just ethically problematic, but also have very real drawbacks for their more specific goals. At the same time, we have a new "red pill" label for folks who are even more misogynistic than PUAs used to be.
I don't think you get anywhere with that framework if you aren't driven to expend [ . . . ] effort
Yes, but a PUA "guru" is still someone who is putting in a lot more effort than most. Many people only engage with PUA as far as they strictly need to. Once they've gotten a few dates and started a LTR, they just drop out of the scene. I'd argue that these should count as successes.
But AIUI, many PUA gurus nowadays understand that these are not just ethically problematic, but also have very real drawbacks for their more specific goals.
The point is that even some people who do have speaking slots at PUA events don't like to be called a PUA to disassociate from those values.
Many people only engage with PUA as far as they strictly need to. Once they've gotten a few dates and started a LTR, they just drop out of the scene. I'd argue that these should count as successes.
If you read David Burns "The Feel Good handbook" he...
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