You're looking at Less Wrong's discussion board. This includes all posts, including those that haven't been promoted to the front page yet. For more information, see About Less Wrong.

NancyLebovitz comments on Open Thread, Apr. 13 - Apr. 19, 2015 - Less Wrong Discussion

4 Post author: Gondolinian 13 April 2015 12:19AM

You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.

Comments (319)

You are viewing a single comment's thread. Show more comments above.

Comment author: [deleted] 14 April 2015 01:29:29PM *  1 point [-]

Maybe it is worth repeating here:

I think the reason it took so long to discover "the map is not the territory" is that it is applied atheism. To a theist, the map in god's mind caused the territory to happen, so that map is even more real than the territory. And every human map is as accurate as it approaches the primordial divine map (or Platonic Forms), the fact that it also happens to predict the terrain merely being a nice bonus. Even Einstein seems to have believed something like this.

To invent "the map is not the territory" you not only need to be an atheist, you need to be an experienced, confident atheist who can figure out what follows from it, and have balls/ovaries of steel to challenge about one and half millenia of quasi-Platonic intellectual tradition of philosophy and science which was about looking for the primordial map.

This becomes intuitively obvious if you think about something artificial, like a house. I make a design of a living room 4m by 5m accross and draw a blueprint. Based on this blueprint, a hundred houses are built, but as bricklayers are not surgically precise and kinda drunk, one house will have a 3.99m x 5.01m living room, another one 4.02m x 4.99m and so on. A century later the town crumbles and a thousand year after that archeologists try to dig it out. What are they going to do? Just measure every room and leave it at that, or rather consider these variously sized rooms are actually 4m x 5m rooms, just inaccurately built? Will they try to figure out the idea, the blueprint behind it, the primordial map that created the terrain? The 4m x 5m map they themselves draw will not be accurate to the terrain, but it is the terrain that they will consider inaccurately implemented, not the map, they will think they have found the primordial map, blueprint, that was inaccurately followed (correctly). And that is largely how theistic science worked. We assumed there is a primordial map. We assumed reality has a blueprint, and we tried to find the blueprint, not simply figuring out reality. Saying the map is not the terrain is another way of saying there is no primordial blueprint, no creator god.

This is why it took so long IMHO.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 15 April 2015 01:36:41PM 1 point [-]

I think you'd like Why We Keep Asking “Was Machiavelli an Atheist?”, about how really hard and slow the path to atheism was.

However, I don't think it took atheism to get to "the map is not the territory". I think it's just difficult for people to realize that their thoughts are a very incomplete description of the world-- the stuff in your head feels so plausible.

Comment author: [deleted] 15 April 2015 02:02:45PM -1 points [-]

Why do you think it was not necessary for it? To me it is the discovery vs. invention problem. With theism truths are made by discovery, truth is the information that is closest to the priomordial information of the thoughts of the creator, the primordial blueprint. Without theism, truths are simply models, tools, handy little gadgets used for prediction and invented, not discovered.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 15 April 2015 02:45:43PM 1 point [-]

There's a tradition which focuses on God being unknowable, so I think people who believed that could think that human maps are not the territory.