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Viliam comments on Open Thread, Apr. 13 - Apr. 19, 2015 - Less Wrong Discussion
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Very Confucian, family first, no individualism. I respect that, actually, my own culture suffers from being in the middle, longing for the idea of an extended family tribe / gang, but yet too focused on individual desires to actually make that happen.
Funny thing is, it is not immediately obvious, but both red-stater American, and social democratic Scandinavian cultures are individualists. They just differ in the opinion of what kind of economic setup brings the most individual freedom. One is more about focusing on not letting anything taken away from you, the other focusing on having everything given to you that you may need to live according to your individual desires.
A properly non-individualist culture is not actually socialist or social democratic in the modern sense. It is more tribal. Share, but only with people I am closely tied to. Sharing with millions of strangers can only be justified by a form of individualism: they did not earn by being part of your tribe, they earned by being individuals who need it and repay it.
I am just saying it because I am kinda tired about debates about individualism vs. socialism. This is a non-issue. The issue is individualist socialism vs. individualist non-socialism vs. communal tribalism.
We should probably not confuse preference and necessity. Some people enjoy being in a tribe. Other people don't enjoy being in a tribe, but it is their only (or most likely) way to survive in their situation.
Just because you miss not being in a tribe is not a proof that if you were a member of an actual tribe, you would enjoy it. Actual tribe might differ from your idea of a tribe; it could be full of people you would hate, and in some kind of society you could have no reasonable way to escape.
I don't think there are some people who enjoy every kind of tribe and others who hate every kind of tribe. It largely depends on the other people in the tribe and your relationships with them.
Sure, there are different tribes, and different personalities. Let's assume that an "average tribe" is... well, average; not very abusive, but also not perfect.
I think some people, if given realistic free choice, would prefer to live in that tribe, and some people would prefer to live in an individualist society. So let's say the former are "voluntary tribesmen", although they may have bad luck and end up in an abusive tribe. The latter, if they live in a culture that does not give them a choice, are "involuntary tribesmen".
From the outside, the "voluntary" and "involuntary" tribesmen may look the same for an observer from our culture. Both stick with their tribe. But one of them enjoys it, and the other one only does it to prevent starvation of themselves or their relatives. Just because we sometimes feel that we would enjoy living in a tribe, we should not believe that all people living in tribes are of the "voluntary" type.