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Salemicus comments on Why capitalism? - Less Wrong Discussion
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This kind of claim is very popular on the left, and it always puzzles me, because it's so obviously false on so many levels.
Firstly, land ownership long predates any government. In fact, it even seems to predate humans! It would be more historically true to say that land ownership created government than that government created land ownership.
Secondly, just because the government recognises your property right in something, doesn't mean you own it in any meaningful way. You seem to picture an omnipotent government that could even enable ownership of the ocean, but if it tried it would find itself much more like Canute. Unless you can enforce ownership, it's meaningless. People simply don't pay royalties every time they sing Happy Birthday, regardless of its copyright status. And so on.
Thirdly, just because the government doesn't recognise your property right in something, it doesn't mean you don't own it. Does Tony Montana own the cocaine he imports? He buys it, he sells it, he stores it, he makes use of it how he wants, other people accept that it is "his," no-one else can get hold of it except by his agreement. That's ownership. The fact that the government doesn't recognise his legal title is irrelevant, he has other methods of enforcing his claim.
In summary, government recognition of title is neither necessary nor sufficient for ownership, nor is it the historic origin. I myself am the title-holder of a plot of land that I do not own in any meaningful sense, because the writs of the government that recognises my title do not run in that area. Instead, there are other people who are currently enjoying all the property rights of that land, using it, earning money from it, excluding others from it, maybe even transferring their ownership. Perhaps I should go there and tell them that because the government doesn't recognise their claim, they can't do any of that stuff. Something tells me they might not find the argument persuasive.
[Edited: Quoting mistake]
At any rate, I think you are trying to fit what I am saying to a political agenda that doesn't match my own. I don't -have- a political agenda here. I'm asserting, as somebody who would be described as an extremist capitalist, that "capitalism" isn't an economic system. What people usually mean, when they say "capitalism", is either exactly the set of economic rules they think would work best, or exactly the set of economic rules they disagree with most.
If you assert that any entity that enforces property rights is a government, then your claim is (1) circular and (2) a distortion of the term "government" beyond all recognition. Tony Montana certainly doesn't look like a government.
Any entity which acts as the final enforcer for any set of rules at -all- is a government; your city can send police to arrest you, your county can do likewise, so they both qualify; your HOA has to sue you for breach of contract in a court run by a government who will enforce the decisions of that court by sending a policeman if necessary. Tony Montana isn't -a- government, but rather an agent of one; the Mafia.
But Tony Montana isn't an agent of anyone, he works for himself. There is no final enforcer in that situation, it's an anarchy in that sense (which is why the drug trade is violent). But property still exists.
In fact, governments are much closer to anarchies than your "unlimited escalation" would allow. The reason I can't enforce property rights in my land isn't because of some rival government, but because of anarchy that the government can't suppress.
Finally, you concede the possibility! Yet property still exists there. So how's property merely a creation of government again?
The property of whom? You? Begging your pardon for insensitivity, but in what meaningful sense do you own it?
ETA:
Does it belong to someone else? In what sense do -they- own it? They get use of it? Do I own the sky because I can enjoy its hue? Or do they, or representatives on their behalf, actively prevent anybody else from taking use of it? If that's the case, in what sense are they, or those representing their interests, not a government?
I own it in the sense that I acquired the land lawfully, I have the title deeds, my name is on the land registry in the capital, I used to "properly" own it until the anarchy, and if the government makes its writ run again, I'll own it again "properly." It's all quite awkward because I wanted to sell the land before this happened, but obviously now no-one is keen to buy.
But now there are other people squatting on the land. They didn't chase off the government, they just took advantage of the chaos. They get the use of it (they are farming it). They do prevent other people from making use of it, yes (otherwise farming would be pointless). But they're certainly not the government, they're just some squatters. If all their neighbours (also mostly squatters!) showed up arrayed against them, they wouldn't be able to hold onto the land. They aren't capable of "infinite escalation." But human society doesn't work like that (mostly). And I'm certainly not going to put together some group of mercenaries to expel them. So those guys now effectively own the land, and they could probably sell it to some other group of squatters living in that anarchy. As long as the central government doesn't reclaim the area, or some rival government emerges, effective property ownership in that area is going to be governed by the tacit norms and mutual understandings among those people. Which sucks for me (although it's not like the land is worth a huge amount) but does appear to have been the norm for most of human history.
I take no disagreement with anything you've said - "infinite escalation" is strictly theoretical, as there's an upper bound on resources. So do we have any disagreement at this point?
So in a traditional (patriarchal) household, each husband is a government, right? And all parents, too?
No, because few husbands or parents are willing or able to act as final enforcers.
Final enforcement requires unlimited escalation. No matter how you escalate the situation, a final enforcer will escalate back.
Is this equivalent to saying that a government is any entity which has the will and the ability to kill you if it deems necessary?
And I think that parents of small children are final enforcers. No one sues their five-year-old for throwing a tantrum.