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halcyon comments on Open Thread, May 25 - May 31, 2015 - Less Wrong Discussion

3 Post author: Gondolinian 25 May 2015 12:00AM

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Comment author: halcyon 27 May 2015 02:30:50PM * -2 points [-]

Oh okay, but is the term "pluralism" compatible with curbing extremist rhetoric when it really is likely to lead to violence? I mean, what if they say they are not trying to completely eradicate the other side, (just, I don't know, teach them a lesson or something) so their speech does not technically violate pluralist principles?

(Or what if the objectionable consequence is not violence, but unfairly, and greatly, reduced opportunities?)

Comment author: ChristianKl 27 May 2015 03:03:50PM 2 points [-]

You have violence on all sides of the political spectrum. I don't think you can effectively prevent political violence by forbidding certain opinions from being voiced.

I think open discussion is better than driving views underground.

Comment author: VoiceOfRa 02 June 2015 03:27:10AM 2 points [-]

Worse, you're likely to wind up driving the truth underground.

Comment author: halcyon comment score below threshold [+] (51 children)

Comment author: Lumifer 27 May 2015 06:15:50PM * 4 points [-]

forbidding specific kinds of public speech can under any circumstances prevent outcomes like that?

Police states are great at preventing outcomes like that.

The problem is that history provides a lot of empirical evidence about how "forbidding specific kinds of public speech" works and what it tends to lead to.

Comment author: halcyon 27 May 2015 07:02:44PM -2 points [-]

Do you claim the following proposition is true: Every state where hate speech has been forbidden has been a horrible police state.

Comment author: Lumifer 27 May 2015 07:06:10PM 4 points [-]

There is not much reason to fight strawmen.

"Hate speech" is not a term that characterizes the speech itself, it's a term that expresses the speaker's attitude towards that particular speech. May I recommend a blog post?

Comment author: halcyon 27 May 2015 07:10:22PM -1 points [-]

For the purposes of this argument, I define hate speech as X such that X is a member of set S. (see my other comment)

Comment author: ChristianKl 27 May 2015 04:28:28PM 2 points [-]

Making public policy because you are afraid of a single scenario is bad. It makes more sense to build public policy based on principles.

I don't think that forbidding speech is an efficient tool to prevent rioting. In many cases it's going to polarize. It makes much more sense to focus on the criminality of blackmailing store owners because you can get agreement on that not being okay.

The UK switched from speaking of fundamentalist Muslims to speaking about violent extremism precisely because making the argument that violent extremism is bad is much easier.

Comment author: halcyon comment score below threshold [+] (42 children)

Comment author: ChristianKl 27 May 2015 11:08:47PM 2 points [-]

I am only concerned about situations that you yourself would agree have been settled beyond dispute are meaningless cases of inflammatory rhetoric that hardened bigots nevertheless continue to spread.

I honestly don't know what that means.

In some sense the question of whether the earth is older than 6000 thousand years is settled beyond dispute. At the same time there are young earth creationists. Allowing real diversity means being okay with their being young earth creationists who disagree with me on the subject.

The same goes for the question whether gay people cause earthquakes. Obviously they don't, but I still don't want to use government power to suppress that belief.

On LW I would downvote a person who expose either of those beliefs but I wouldn't make that ground for calling for deletion of his posts or him getting banned.

1) Principles should be chosen on the basis of doing the most good and prevent the most harm, right?

Yes, that means you look at actual real world cases. I'm not aware of any case in the US in the decades where "a bigot gives a great inflammatory speech that inspires bands of dissatisfied young men to prevent every store in town from selling groceries to some minority".

2) Do you agree that incidents of the kind I described are numerous, serious and compelling enough to be worth taking notice of?

At the moment I don't see any problem in the US from the inability to forbid inflammatory rhetoric due to Brandenburg v. Ohio.

Comment author: halcyon 28 May 2015 03:38:31AM * -1 points [-]

I'm a native Bengali speaker, so my syntax may be problematic. I later glossed that sensence as something like, "ChristianKl admits X is a case of inflammatory rhetoric being spread by bigots, etc."

I'm totally in favor of open public debate, even regarding positions that the liberal police would dub "bigoted". I'm not talking about real debates, I'm talking about cases that really are crazy propaganda. Would you say that under some circumstances, it is legitimate to curb the spread of such propaganda?

In particular, I'm in favor of all views being aired on LW. Hopefully, nobody is going to pick on homosexuals just because someone expresses anti-gay sentiments here, and it is not even possible to pose the more serious threats over the internet.

I'm an Indian, not an American. Communal riots are a real thing in India. Would you say that under some circumstances, curbing hateful propaganda has a real chance of minimizing violence? If so, are any such cases legitimate?

This is how I clarified my position farther down the thread: "I'm genuinely on the fence on this one. My only claim is that one legitimate argument to do it (censor inflammatory rhetoric) does exist. Depending on the specific case, that reason may be outweighed by more significant arguments."

Comment author: ChristianKl 28 May 2015 12:36:42PM 1 point [-]

"I'm genuinely on the fence on this one. My only claim is that one legitimate argument to do it (censor inflammatory rhetoric) does exist. Depending on the specific case, that reason may be outweighed by more significant arguments."

Laws are written as general documents. You don't write laws that say: "Censorship is supposed to be done by the government on a case by case basis after careful analysis of the case."

At least we don't do this in the West. As a result we have a stable democratic system. Having a stable democratic system is a way to have a peaceful society where communal riots aren't commonplace.

Unfortunately I don't know enough about the dynamics of Indian communal politics to give recommendation about how India should specifically deal with it.

The Wikipedia summary suggests that there a provision in India to censure speech to protect the public order. That seems much more targeted at riots than provisions about speech against minorities (hate speech laws).

Comment author: halcyon comment score below threshold [+] (14 children)

Comment author: VoiceOfRa 02 June 2015 03:47:07AM 2 points [-]

On the other hand, consider that in the 20th century, England, the land of consequentialists, survived, while Germany, the land of deontologists, collapsed.

England also had a much stronger tradition of free speech than Germany.

Comment author: VoiceOfRa 02 June 2015 03:46:11AM 2 points [-]

Any form of speech is allowed as long as the other side is allowed to answer.

What counts as the "other side". Do I have to invite the flat earth society whenever I want to talk about geography?

Comment author: ChristianKl 29 May 2015 01:37:33AM 0 points [-]

Any form of speech is allowed as long as the other side is allowed to answer. Any speech that the other side is not allowed to answer is forbidden.

What does "allowed to answer" mean? A Singapore style mandate that a newspaper has to give room for the government to tell it's side of the story?

On the other hand, consider that in the 20th century, England, the land of consequentialists, survived, while Germany, the land of deontologists, collapsed.

England lost their empire in the 20th century. Germany losts wars but it didn't collapse.

(Would you say it would be better to consider pluralism as an ideal to aspire to, or should we try to reach it all at once? Eg. We can forbid inflammatory rhetoric with the aim of gradually loosening the restrictions.)

If "we = India" then I unfortunately don't know enough about the Indian political conflicts. It would also help if you would use more concrete terms then "inflammatory rhetoric". That term is broader then just speech that threatens the public order.

continue this thread »

Comment author: Lumifer 27 May 2015 07:03:45PM 2 points [-]

have been settled beyond dispute

Clearly not.

Comment author: halcyon 27 May 2015 07:07:43PM -2 points [-]

Maybe I wasn't clear enough.

Imagine there is a society where all kinds of people are saying all kinds of things. S is a subset of all the things that are being said, such that if X is a member of set S, then X is a case "that you yourself would agree have been settled beyond dispute are meaningless cases of inflammatory rhetoric that hardened bigots nevertheless continue to spread".

Now, I am only concerned cases X such that X is a member of set S.

Comment author: Lumifer 27 May 2015 07:10:59PM 2 points [-]

Who is that "you yourself"? One particular person? Why should you care about the opinion of one particular person?

And since "bigots continue to spread" it's clear that the not the entire population agrees about X being the member of set S.

Comment author: halcyon 27 May 2015 07:14:44PM -2 points [-]

In this case, you = Lumifer.

You, Lumifer, think my characterization is accurate for the specific cases that I am referring to.

Comment author: Lumifer 27 May 2015 07:16:41PM 2 points [-]

I am not the arbiter of appropriateness of speech and do not hold myself as such.

Specifically, in the case of personally me, the subset S looks to be empty.

continue this thread »

Comment author: g_pepper 27 May 2015 06:37:56PM 0 points [-]

If you have time, you should watch this video in which Jonathan Rauch puts forward a very intelligent moral defense of free speech. I don't think I can do it justice if I try to summarize it so I won't try. One point he makes though is that the most vulnerable of groups who are most likely to be targeted by hate speech are the least likely to be protected by laws constraining free speech.

Rauch is humorous in places and always thoughtful; he steelmans the case for restricting speech and his free speech defense holds up nicely against the steel man.

Comment author: halcyon 27 May 2015 07:54:26PM -2 points [-]

I'm trying, but my connection is too slow. Thanks for the link, I'll try again later.

Comment author: g_pepper 29 May 2015 03:01:24AM 0 points [-]

Sounds good. I hope you have time to watch it! One point the video makes is that the most effective antidote to bad/wrong ideas is good/correct ideas. An environment that allows unfettered free speech, it seems to me, is an environment that is likely to allow people to judge ideas on their merits and, hopefully, will allow the good ideas to dominate.

halcyon comments on Open Thread, May 25 - May 31, 2015 - Less Wrong Discussion

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