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DeVliegendeHollander comments on Open Thread, Jun. 1 - Jun. 7, 2015 - Less Wrong Discussion
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I am afraid this way it would be an endless argument, so I try a different angle. Do you believe that "Power resides where men believe it resides; it's a trick, a shadow on the wall, and a very small man can cast a very large shadow." ?
If yes, well, you cannot deny that people feel their employers or landlords have power over them: and this feeling is power itself, because it makes them behave so.
Having been a landlord, I can testify that this is not in fact the case.
Anyone can testify anything, but I don't see how "having been a landlord" gives you any particular authority to say whether tenants commonly feel that landlords have power over them. (You might be able to say that your tenants didn't obviously-to-you feel that. If you knew them closely enough to be sure of being right, then that itself makes you a very non-typical landlord.)
I would not want to claim that anything nontrivial is true of all tenants or of all landlords. But the tenants I know who have said much to me about their experience of tenancy do in fact appear to feel that their landlords have power over them -- but there's a selection effect here: you're more likely to be talking to other people about your relations with your landlord if something's gone wrong somehow.
You mean they easily disregarded your rules and things like that?
Yes, rules like that they have to actually pay the rent with checks that don't bounce.
Power is a relationship. You have power over me if I find it in my interest to grant it to you. This could be a financial interest, a desire to avoid physical harm, or anything else. What's granted can be revoked. If I no longer fear your ability to inflict harm or if I decide I don't want your money, your power over me ceases to exist. Power resides where men believe it resides, because they put it there.
With that said, there are, as observed, a number of methods of reliably gaining power over individuals. Money and force will work on most people in the short term.
That's sophistry -- it's easy to adjust your interests. Power still grows out of the barrel of a gun. Yes, you can be a martyr and get shot, but the great majority of people do what powers-that-be tell them.
Force comes from the barrel of a gun. It may or may not lead to actual power. There are countless historical examples where use of force simply served to fan the flames of resistance or where brutal persecutions only strengthened the cause.
People generally listen to the powers-that-be because said powers still look after their interests to an extent. People might not like the local tyrant. They may yearn for a better government. They are also keenly aware of how things can get worse. If the Emperor is tough on crime, leaves you alone if you follow the rules, and makes the trains run on time, that's probably better than a bloody civil war or domination by criminal gangs.
If I willingly submit to force, it's because I expect better treatment than I'd get by resisting.
I understand what you are saying, it's just that I don't think it's a useful framework for analysis.
There are a bunch of issues with what we mean by "power", so let's define the thing. Actually, let me offer three definition in a descending order of generality.
(1) Power is the ability to achieve your goals, make things happen, actually do stuff. If you're Superman you have the power to fly.
(2) Power is the ability to make other people do what you want. If you're Elon Musk, you have the power to build spacecraft.
(3) Power is the ability to make other people do what you want through negative incentives (basically, threats). If you're a cop, you have the power to arrest people.
Going back to DVH's point, neither of these is "a trick, a shadow on the wall".