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advancedatheist comments on Open thread, Sep. 21 - Sep. 27, 2015 - Less Wrong Discussion

3 Post author: MrMind 21 September 2015 07:19AM

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Comment author: advancedatheist 24 September 2015 06:09:59PM 3 points [-]

I have a casual interest in religious conversion as an empirical psychological phenomenon. The philosopher William James makes the case for studying religious experience empirically in one of his books published over a century ago - The Varieties of Religious Experience - so the idea has circulated for quite a while.

I think we might have an example of an internet figure undergoing an Augustinian sort of spiritual crisis documented online, namely the pickup artist Roosh Valizadeh. Roosh has posted and said lately that he doesn't enjoy his sexual conquests as much as he used to. Just the other day he posted "Junk Food Sex," where he recounts his reaction to one his Polish pickups:

http://www.rooshv.com/junk-food-sex

Early in the summer I met a Polish girl on a weekend night. I convinced her to have a drink with me in a different bar and then two hours later I invited her back to my place. We had sex all night long. I had four orgasms with her, and each one felt immensely pleasurable, but the following day I had a weird feeling, almost as if I did something wrong. I ignored this feeling and contacted her again one week later. She returned to my apartment, and during the sex act I felt powerful bodily satisfaction. While I was laying my strokes inside her, I savored the fact that I could sleep with a girl 13 years younger than myself, but after my orgasm completed, and our bodies remained still, the same negative feeling came forth within me.

Now, this sounds familiar if you have read autobiographical accounts of religious conversions, like the ones quoted in James's study. And especially if you have read Augustine's Confessions, where Augustine after having several sexual relationships in his youth, famously prays, "Grant me chastity and continence, but not yet," because he feels the conflict between his waning sexual desires and his growing "spiritual" yearnings in his middle age.

If Roosh does "go Augustine" on us after his youth of debauchery, I will find that fascinating to observe.

Comment author: Lumifer 24 September 2015 06:16:44PM *  2 points [-]

Are there any indications that Roosh is interested in religion or high-end spirituality? If anything, I'd expect him to go not Augustine, but Ecclesiastes.

Comment author: advancedatheist 25 September 2015 04:06:52PM 0 points [-]

Roosh has posted essays about the classical literature he has read and thought about, which shows an openness to a philosophical view of life. That can overlap with spiritual thinking to some extent.

Comment author: ChristianKl 26 September 2015 06:47:39PM 3 points [-]

Reading books is a quite different activity than seeking spirtual experience.

Comment author: bogus 24 September 2015 10:04:50PM -1 points [-]

Roosh has posted and said lately that he doesn't enjoy his sexual conquests as much as he used to

Yup, that's pretty normal. People tend to pursue casual flings out of a desire for sheer novelty, and plenty of them start pursuing longer-term goals after that desire is fulfilled. This is one reason why the widespread fear that casual sex might "ruin" folks and deprive them of any enjoyment of long-term relationships is almost certainly misguided.

Comment author: advancedatheist 25 September 2015 04:13:00PM *  -2 points [-]

Actually we have empirical evidence that women's premarital sexual adventures damage their ability to form stable marriages:

http://socialpathology.blogspot.com/2010/08/defining-slut.html

When our allegedly unenlightened ancestors shamed sluts, shunned bastard kids and married their daughters off as young virgins, it turns out that they knew their business after all.

BTW, I find it curious that at least some of us consider paleonutrition a guide towards a modern healthy diet, but then turn around and call paleocognition bad names like "cognitive biases."

Comment author: Lumifer 25 September 2015 04:34:27PM *  5 points [-]

we have empirical evidence

No, we have only some correlations where obvious third factors (e.g. IQ) are involved. If you want to take this approach, just being black strongly "damages ... ability to form stable marriages".

It seems that "correlation != causation" hasn't been repeated enough X-/

P.S. Not to mention that "stable marriages" doesn't look like a terminal goal to me. If that's all you want, just forbid divorce.

Comment author: VoiceOfRa 28 September 2015 11:16:21PM -1 points [-]

No, we have only some correlations where obvious third factors (e.g. IQ) are involved. If you want to take this approach, just being black strongly "damages ... ability to form stable marriages".

There's evidence for that as well, but notice that ~60 years ago blacks were much better at forming stable marriages than today.

If that's all you want, just forbid divorce.

And it used to be forbidden, or at least much harder. Once widespread premarital sex started undermining marriage, pressure was exerted that made divorce no longer forbidden.

Comment author: Lumifer 28 September 2015 11:48:33PM 1 point [-]

And it used to be forbidden

Yep. I have no wish to go back to those times.

Comment author: VoiceOfRa 29 September 2015 12:04:19AM 0 points [-]

Yep. I have no wish to go back to those times.

Any particular reason? General belief that all change is progress and hence good? A dislike of stable marriages?

Comment author: Lumifer 29 September 2015 12:11:17AM 4 points [-]

Any particular reason?

I'm a very big fan of freedom defined as "ability to make meaningful choices".

Specifically with respect to divorce, I think that its absence makes for stable marriages where two people hate each other. Sometimes loudly and violently, sometimes subtly and poisonously.

Comment author: VoiceOfRa 06 October 2015 02:59:18AM 0 points [-]

I'm a very big fan of freedom defined as "ability to make meaningful choices".

Even if those choices ultimately lead to less freedom as society is forced to deal with the resulting mess?

Comment author: Lumifer 06 October 2015 05:31:15PM -1 points [-]

I am also a big fan of NOT black-and-white worlds.

"Ultimately lead to less freedom" -- how do you know that? Can you show me some probability distribution of outcomes? How certain are you of it? What is the probability that you are making a sign error?

At the moment all I see is mood affiliation.

Comment author: gjm 25 September 2015 04:20:27PM 2 points [-]

"were doing something that, according to some evidence, has one positive consequence" is not the same as "knew their business".