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Fuglinnavon comments on Stupid questions thread, October 2015 - Less Wrong Discussion

3 Post author: philh 13 October 2015 07:39PM

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Comment author: Fuglinnavon 14 October 2015 02:19:21PM 0 points [-]

Is the human kind made to live in such big societies ?

Comment author: MathiasZaman 14 October 2015 07:35:26PM *  4 points [-]

(Is "Are big societies optimal for human happiness/quality of life," a fair rephrasing of your question?)

I've been asking myself similar questions lately. As pointed out "made to live" implies things that never happened, in that humans weren't created, nor were the current societies/civilizations ever consciously designed or created. They just sort of happened.

Since both humans and societies got to where they are through mostly unthinking processes, it's easy to see how things didn't end up optimal.

Humans were hunter-gatherers for most of their existence. It's hard to intuitively grasp how long a time that is, but I find this quote helpful (source):

If the history of the human race began at midnight, then we would now be almost at the end of our first day. We lived as hunter-gatherers for nearly the whole of that day, from midnight through dawn, noon, and sunset. Finally, at 11:54 p. m. we adopted agriculture.

Without wanting to get into bad evolutionary sciences, I think it's reasonably fair that even modern humans are mostly adapted for the hunter-gatherer life, with a couple of more modern modules thrown in. It's also reasonably fair that humans were mostly "made" to live in small tribes, hunting and gathering.

Agriculture (and later writing, the printing press, the Industrial Revolution, computers...) gave us reasons to not be hunter-gatherers any more and my naive assessment is that a good number of those reasons are good ones. It's just that our bodies and brains haven't caught up.

So where am I going with this? I'm not sure. What I'm trying to say is that I think it's better to say that (our) big societies weren't made for humans (at least, they're not optimal for humans), rather than saying that humans weren't made for big societies.

Comment author: SilentCal 14 October 2015 10:20:41PM 2 points [-]

I like your post, but I'd reverse your punchline: humans were indeed not made for big societies, but big societies were made for humans. The problem is that our societies are a retrofit to try to coordinate humans at scales we were never meant for, hence the non-optimality.

Comment author: Fuglinnavon 15 October 2015 08:24:24PM 0 points [-]

Thank you for your answer i was thinking the same way ! And yes it was the meaning of my question thank you !

Comment author: ChristianKl 15 October 2015 09:25:04PM -1 points [-]

(Is "Are big societies optimal for human happiness/quality of life," a fair rephrasing of your question?)

That's again a pretty trival answer. No society isn't optimal. We don't live in utopia.

Since both humans and societies got to where they are through mostly unthinking processes

Nation states are created via human made law and a lot of the ways humans interact with each other socially in modern society got thought up by humans as well.

Without wanting to get into bad evolutionary sciences, I think it's reasonably fair that even modern humans are mostly adapted for the hunter-gatherer life, with a couple of more modern modules thrown in. It's also reasonably fair that humans were mostly "made" to live in small tribes, hunting and gathering.

What does that mean? That modern humans have a lower lifespan than they would have in a hunter-gatherer life? That happiness is higher?

Comment author: Dagon 14 October 2015 11:30:36PM 3 points [-]

Others have pointed out that you're asking an incoherent question. I'd like to state that even if you refine it to something like "can modern humans be very happy in a big society" (or whatever you do actually mean), you still have the problem of "compared to what"?

Even if you conclude "the average and median human was happier 10000 years ago", you'll face the (Mere Addition Paradox/ Repugnant Conclusion)[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mere_addition_paradox]. You'll have to figure out how to compare over 7 billion just-OK lives in big societies against a few tens of million pretty-good lives for hunter-gatherers.

Comment author: Bryan-san 14 October 2015 04:25:09PM 3 points [-]
Comment author: Fuglinnavon 14 October 2015 05:32:07PM 0 points [-]

Woaw thank you very much !

Comment author: SilentCal 14 October 2015 09:57:50PM *  0 points [-]

Also might want to take a look at http://squid314.livejournal.com/340809.html

Comment author: shminux 14 October 2015 04:16:48PM 1 point [-]

Depends on what you mean by "made to live". We certainly gravitate toward them.

Comment author: Fuglinnavon 14 October 2015 05:27:23PM -1 points [-]

Yeah but even if it's known that the human kindis a "social kind" i don't think such big societies are very necessary ...

Comment author: shminux 15 October 2015 06:51:25AM 0 points [-]

What do you mean by "necessary"? They certainly grow organically.

Comment author: Fuglinnavon 15 October 2015 08:47:58PM 1 point [-]

I wanted to mean that even if they grow, they're becoming too big for the humans and a small or medium group of persons or at least a very small society is maybe more adapted to us