Bound_up comments on Open thread, Nov. 16 - Nov. 22, 2015 - Less Wrong Discussion
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Comments (185)
I understand what you are saying, and I think that most people would agree with your analysis (at least, once it is explained to them). But I also think that it is not entirely coherent. For example, imagine that we had the technology to replace neurons with nanocircuits. We inject you with nanobots and slowly, over the course of years, each of your brain cells are replaced with electronic equivalents. This happens so slowly that you do not even notice -- conscious is maintained unbroken. Then, one at a time, the circuits and feedback loops are optimized; this you do notice, as you get a better memory and you can think faster and more clearly; throughout this, however, your consciousness is maintained unbroken. Then your memory is transcribed onto a more efficient storage medium (still connected to your brain, and with no downtime). You can see where this is going. There is no point where it is clear that one you ceases and another begins, but at the end of the process you are a 'computer body'. Moreover, while I set this up to happen over years, there's no obvious reason that you couldn't speed the example up to take seconds.
Wizard has given another example; most of us accept Star Trek style transporters as a perfectly reasonable concept (albeit maybe impossible in practice), but when you look at them closely they present exactly the sort of moral/ontological dilemma you are worried about.This suggests that we do not fully grok even our own concept of personal identity.
One solution, is to conclude that, after much thought, if you cannot define a consistent concept of persistence of personal identity over time, perhaps this is because it is not an intellectual concept, but a lizard-brain panic caused by the mention of death.
In my mind this is exactly the same sort of debate people have over free will. The concept makes no real sense as an ontological concept, but it is one so deeply ingrained in our culture that it takes a lot of thought to accept that.
So if uploading was followed by guillotining the "meatbody," would you sign up?
I have no problem with the brain just being one kind of hardware you can run a consciousness on. I have no problem with transporting the mind from one hardware to another, instantaneously, if you can do it in between the neural impulses.
But it seems like people mean you get scanned, a second, fully "real," person comes into existence, and this is supposed to extend your life.
Are we to believe that the new consciousness would be fine with being killed, just because you would still be around afterwards? Would their life be extended in you even if they were deleted after being created? Are they going to stick around feeling and experiencing life because you exist?
My confusion is that these seem like obvious points. Why are people even taking this seriously, why is it on the list?
I can fully understand why the rest of us might like to upload the great people of the world, or maybe everybody if we value having them around. But I don't think this should make them feel indifferent to their deaths, because it's not extending anyone's life.
I put this in the open thread because I assumed I was just ignorant of some key part of the process. If this is really it, maybe these points should be their own post and we can kick uploading off the life extension possibility list.
I would not signup for a destructive upload unless I was about to die. But if I was convinced that I was about to die, then I absolutely would.
I don't think that you are missing anything, really. If I uploaded the average transhumanist, and then asked the meatbody (with mind intact) what I should do with the meatbody, they'd say either to go away and leave them alone or to upload them a few more times, please. If I asked them if they were happy to have a copy uploaded, they would say yes. If I asked them if they were disappointed that they were the meatbody version of themselves, they'd say yes. If I asked if the meatbody would now like an immortality treatment, they would say yes. If I asked the uploaded copy if they wanted the meatbody to get the immortality treatment, they would say yes.... I think.
I think that uploading is on the list primarily because there is a lot of skepticism that the original human brain can last much more than ~150 years. Whether or not this skepticism is justified is still an open question.
Uploading may also get a spot on the list because if you can accept a destructive upload, then your surviving self does get (at least theoretically) a much much better life than is likely to be possible on meatEarth.