You're looking at Less Wrong's discussion board. This includes all posts, including those that haven't been promoted to the front page yet. For more information, see About Less Wrong.

gjm comments on Open Thread, January 11-17, 2016 - Less Wrong Discussion

3 Post author: username2 12 January 2016 10:29AM

You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.

Comments (180)

You are viewing a single comment's thread. Show more comments above.

Comment author: Lumifer 14 January 2016 05:22:42PM *  5 points [-]

An excellent piece about communication styles, in particular about a common type of interaction on the 'net which is sometimes seen on LW as well. I'll quote some chunks, but the whole thing is good.

Here’s a series of events that happens many times daily on my favorite bastion of miscommunication, the bird website. Person tweets some fact. Other people reply with other facts. Person complains, “Ugh, randos in my mentions.” Harsh words may be exchanged, and everyone exits the encounter thinking the other person was monumentally rude for no reason. ...

For clarity’s sake, I’ll name “ugh, randos” Sue and an archetypal “rando” Charlie.[4] I will also assume both are, initially anyway, operating in good faith–while there are certainly Sues and Charlies who are just unpleasant assholes, I think they are comparatively uncommon, and in any event picking apart their motivations wouldn’t be particularly interesting.

From Sue’s perspective, strangers have come out of the woodwork to demonstrate superiority by making useless, trivial corrections. Some of them may be saying obvious things that Sue, being well-versed in the material she’s referencing, already knows, and thus are insulting her intelligence, possibly due to their latent bias. This is not necessarily an unreasonable assumption, given how social dynamics tend to work in mainstream culture. People correct others to gain status and assert dominance. An artifice passed off as “communication” is often wielded as a blunt object to establish power hierarchies and move up the ladder by signaling superiority. Sue responds in anger as part of this social game so as not to lose status in the eyes of her tribe.

From Charlie’s perspective, Sue has shared a piece of information. Perhaps he already knows it, perhaps he doesn’t. What is important is that Sue has given a gift to the commons, and he would like to respond with a gift of his own. Another aspect is that, as he sees it, Sue has signaled an interest in the topic, and he would like to establish rapport as a fellow person interested in the topic. In other words, he is not trying to play competitive social games, and he may not even be aware such a game is being played. When Sue responds unfavorably, he sees this as her spurning his gift as if it had no value. This is roughly as insulting to Charlie as his supposed attempt to gain status over Sue is to her. At this point, both people think the other one is the asshole. People rightly tend to be mean to those they are sure are assholes, so continued interaction between them will probably only serve to reinforce their beliefs the other is acting in bad faith.

And a special shout-out to mathematicians :-/ Here is a quote about how talking to a mathematician feels to someone... born on the other side of IQ tracks:

Nobody was mean to me, nobody consciously laughed at me. There’s just a way that mathematicians have been socialized (I guess?!) to interact with each other that I find oppressive. If you have never had someone mansplain or whitesplain things to you, it may be hard for you to understand what I’m going to describe.

Usually, friendly conversation involves building a shared perspective. Among other things, mansplaining and whitesplaining involve one person of privilege forcing a marginalized person into a disagreeable perspective against their will, and not allowing them a way out. If you are someone averse to negative labels, it can be silencing. My experience discussing math with mathematicians is that I get dragged into a perspective that includes a hierarchy of knowledge that says some information is trivial, some ideas are “stupid”; that declares what is basic knowledge, and presents open incredulity in the face of dissent. Maybe I would’ve successfully assimilated into this way of thinking if I had learned it at a time where I was at the same level as my peers, but as it was it was just an endless barrage of passive insults I was supposed to be in on.

Comment author: gjm 14 January 2016 06:07:51PM 4 points [-]

It's not clear to me that the other person really was "born on the other side of IQ tracks". (Unless you just mean that she's female and black, I guess?) I mean, she did a PhD in pure mathematics. Some of the things she says about it and about her experience in mathematics are certainly ... such as might incline the cynical to think that she actually just isn't very good at mathematics and is trying some passive-aggressive thing where she half-admits it and half-blames it on The Kyriarchy. But getting to the point at which anyone is willing to consider letting you do a mathematics PhD (incidental note: her supervisor is a very, very good mathematician) implies, I think, a pretty decent IQ.

For the avoidance of doubt, I am not myself endorsing the cynic's position above. I haven't looked at her thesis, which may in fact make it clear that she's a very good mathematician indeed. In which case her difficulties might in fact be the result of The Kyriarchy, or might be the result of oversensitivity on her part, or any combination thereof. Or in fact might simply be a useful rhetorical invention.

Comment deleted 24 January 2016 03:24:28AM [-]
Comment author: Good_Burning_Plastic 24 January 2016 11:46:46AM *  2 points [-]

Assuming it was written by her and not her adviser.

The writing doesn't sound like the same voice as her advisor's (e.g. arXiv:1402.1131). OTOH it is plausible that most of the original research in it was the latter's. Also, the fact that she doesn't seem to have ever published anything else is pretty suspicious. EDIT: also, she took ten years to finish it.

All in all, I'd guess her IQ is above 100 but below 130.

Comment author: gjm 24 January 2016 11:31:48AM 3 points [-]

Two minutes' inspection of her thesis would, I think, lead any reasonable person to conclude that it was almost certainly not written by her adviser. The extremely unusual style is consistent with her adviser having, say, had all the actual clever mathematical ideas in it, but again the point here is merely that Piper is clearly intelligent, and being able to understand the material described in her thesis (which, again, I think it's clear she does if you actually look at the thesis) is itself indicative of a high IQ.

(PS. Hi, Eugine/Azathoth/Ra/Lion. This is your regularly scheduled reminder that I respond to mass-downvoting of my old comments, such as you've been engaging in very recently, by posting more, and that Less Wrong responds to it by banning you and forcing you to go to all the trouble of registering another identity.)

Comment author: Good_Burning_Plastic 24 January 2016 11:37:19AM 1 point [-]

I haven't looked at her thesis,

Do try to.

Comment author: gjm 24 January 2016 02:16:29PM 0 points [-]

Since writing the above, I have. It's ... extremely unusual.

Comment author: Lumifer 14 January 2016 06:35:55PM 1 point [-]

Ah, I didn't follow the link to Piper's blog so my expression was misguided -- I take it back.

In this case, I think, her complaint reflects the status game mismatch -- either she's playing it and her conversation partner isn't, or vice versa, she is not and he is. It's hard to tell what is the case.