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Gunnar_Zarncke comments on Open thread, Jan. 18 - Jan. 24, 2016 - Less Wrong Discussion

4 Post author: MrMind 18 January 2016 09:42AM

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Comment author: Viliam 18 January 2016 09:11:27PM 8 points [-]

Reading the preface to Science and Sanity by Korzybski:

From its very inception, the discipline of general semantics has been such as to attract persons possessing high intellectual integrity, independence from orthodox commitments, and agnostic, disinterested and critical inclinations. (...) For them, authority reposes not in any omniscient or omnipresent messiah, but solely in the dependability of the predictive content of propositions made with reference to the non-verbal happenings in this universe. They apply this basic rubric as readily to korzybskian doctrine as to all other abstract formulations and theories and, like good scientists, they are prepared to cast them off precisely as soon as eventualities reveal them to be incompetent, i.e., lacking in reliable predictive content. This circumstance in itself should abrogate once and for all the feckless charges sometimes made by ill-informed critics that general semantics is but one more of a long succession of cults, having its divine master, its disciples, a bible, its own mumbo-jumbo and ceremonial rites. (...) Far from being inclined to repel changes that appear to menace the make-up of general semantics, they actively anticipate them and are prepared to foster those that seem to promise better predictions, better survival and better adaptation to the vicissitudes of this earthly habitat.

One cannot help but be aware, in 1958, that there is far less suspicion and misgiving among intellectuals concerning general semantics and general semanticists than prevailed ten and twenty years ago. Indeed, a certain receptivity is noticeable. The term 'semantics' itself is now frequently heard on the radio, TV and the public speaking platform and it appears almost as frequently in the public print. It has even found a recent 'spot' in a Hollywood movie and it gives some promise of becoming an integral part of our household jargon. This in no sense means that all such users of the term have familiarized themselves with the restricted meaning of the term 'semantics,' much less that they have internalized the evaluative implications and guiding principles of action subsumed under general semantics. A comparable circumstance obtains, of course, in the layman's use of other terms, such as 'electronics.'

(...) The years since the close of World War II have similarly witnessed the access of general semantics not only to academic curricula of the primary, secondary and collegiate levels of the North and South American continents, parts of Western Europe, Britain, Australia and Japan, but to the busy realms of commerce, industry and transportation: of military organization and civil administration; of law, engineering, sociology, economics and religion. These constitute no negligible extensions of general semantics into the world of 'practical' affairs. Large business enterprises, looking toward the improvement of intra-and extramural relations, more satisfying resolutions of the complicated problems that arise between labor and management, and the enhancement of service to their immediate constituents and fellow men in general have found it rewarding, in many instances, to reorganize their entire structure so as to assure the incorporation of general semantic formulations. Several organizations now in existence make it their sale business to advise and provide help in the implementation of such changes. The core of their prescriptions consists in the appropriate application of general semantics. It is becoming a routine for the high and intermediate level executives of certain industries, advertising agencies, banking establishments and the like to retreat for several days at a time while they receive intensive instruction and participate in seminar-workshops designed to indoctrinate them with the principles of general semantics. Comparable courses of instruction have been provided within recent years for the officers of the U.S. Air Academy, the traffic officers of the Chicago Police Department and the sales forces of several large pharmaceutical and biochemical houses. These innovations in business procedure entail, of course, enormous outlays of time, energy and money. They must in time pay perceptible dividends or suffer abandonment. That they are steadily on the increase appears to offer eloquent testimony of their effectiveness.

(...) Membership in the two major organizations concerned with the development, teaching and utilization of general semantics, namely, the Institute of General Semantics located at Lakeville, Connecticut and the International Society for General Semantics, with its central office at Chicago, has slowly but steadily increased over the years and, gratifyingly, has generally avoided the 'lunatic fringe' that appears ever ready to attach itself to convenient nuclei. (...) numerous sectional conferences have been held in various cities each year and the number of courses sought and offered in general semantics is definitely on the increase.

All in all, then, a healthy state of affairs appears to prevail in respect of general semantics. The impact of Korzybski's work on Western culture is now unmistakable and there is every reason to be optimistic that his precepts will be read by ever-widening circles of serious students and that the latter, in their turn, must deeply influence generations of students yet to come. It remains to be seen what effects the regular implementation of these precepts will bring to mankind. Many of us are convinced that they will prove highly salutary.

Impressive! It's like reading about CFAR from a parallel universe. I wonder what happened in that parallel universe fifty years after this text was published. Can we use it as an outside view for the LW rationality movement fifty years after they achieve the successes listed here?

Comment author: Gunnar_Zarncke 18 January 2016 10:23:15PM 1 point [-]

I had a comparable impression from reading Cybernetics (at least the parts I got to so far) and other books on system theory.

Comment author: Vaniver 19 January 2016 04:32:42PM *  3 points [-]

I think cybernetics the practice / math is alive and well, even if cybernetics the name is mostly discarded. Take a look at Wiener's wiki page:

Wiener is considered the originator of cybernetics, a formalization of the notion of feedback, with implications for engineering, systems control, computer science, biology, neuroscience, philosophy, and the organization of society.

The right way to read that is that it's used in seven fields, not zero.

Comment author: ChristianKl 19 January 2016 05:50:30PM 4 points [-]

Cybernetics is alive but I think it's misleading to call it well. When talking about an issue like weight loss the dominating paradigm is "calories in, calories out" and not a cybernetics inspired paradigm.

We don't live in a world where any scale on the market allows automatic calculating of the moving averages of the hacker diet.

Quantified Self as movement is based on Cybernetics. At first European conference Gary spoke about how cybernetics is not well.

I had an old professor in university who taught physiology based on regulation system thinking (cybernetics but he didn't use the word cybernetics). According to him there's was no textbook that presents that perspective we could use for the course.

Comment author: Viliam 20 January 2016 11:33:56AM *  1 point [-]

So it seems like cybernetics was dissected and some of its parts were digested by various disciplines, but the original spirit which connected those parts together was lost.

An analogy for the rationality movement would be if in a few decades some of the CFAR or MIRI lessons will become accepted material in pedagogics, physics, or maybe even AI research, but the whole spirit of "tsuyoku naritai" will be forgotten.

Some parts that I guess are likely to survive, because they can fit in the existing education:

  • treating emotions as rational or irrational depending on whether they relate to facts (psychology)
  • planning fallacy (management)
  • illusion of transparency (pedagogics)

Some parts that I guess are likely to be ignored, because they seem too trivial, and don't fit to the existing educational system. They may be mentioned as a footnote in philosophy, but they will not be noticed, because philosophy already contains millions of mostly useless ideas:

  • making beliefs pay rent
  • noticing confusion
  • fake explanations
  • mysterious answers
  • affective spirals
  • fallacy of grey
  • dissolving the question
  • tsuyoku naritai
  • rationality as a common cause of many causes

EDIT: Reading my lists again, seems like the main difference is between things you can describe and things you have to do. The focus of academia is to describe stuff, not to train people. Which makes sense, sure. Except for the paradoxical part where you have to train people to become better at correctly describing stuff.

Comment author: Viliam 19 January 2016 09:46:56AM 2 points [-]

I haven't read the book, but looking at the reviews on the page you linked...

First, it's funny what once passed for pop science. (...) at least 10% of the pages are devoted to difficult equations and proofs, and I had to skip a couple of chapters because the math was way, way over my head.

Wiener was both philosopher and scientist. As a scientist he was evidently peerless at the time; as a philosopher he reads as ... quirky. But at least he's trying. (...) his assertion that the body is a machine - a wonderfully complex machine, but a machine nevertheless - apparently had not been so internalized by his intended audience (again, a mathematically literate lay audience) that it was unnecessary to make the point.

(Wiener) was clearly committed to a program of ethical research and development. He warned of the danger of developing dangerous computing applications, and dismissed the idea that we can always "turn off" machines that we don't like, since it isn't always clear that the danger exists until after the damage is done.

That's like Eliezer from a parallel universe, except that in this parallel universe the alternative Eliezer was a professor of mathematics at MIT.