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skeptical_lurker comments on Open Thread Feb 29 - March 6, 2016 - Less Wrong Discussion

4 Post author: Elo 28 February 2016 10:11PM

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Comment author: skeptical_lurker 29 February 2016 10:02:46AM *  0 points [-]

It's one of the most important and surprising events of our time

I'm saying this in hindsight, but I disagree about this being surprising. Anti-immigration parties are on the rise all across Europe. The National Front in France are probably to the right of Trump, and Golden Dawn in Greece are genuine neo-nazis. More generally, non-mainstream parties are on the rise, probably powered by the ability to organise grassroots activism via the net. Even the Pirate Parties are winning seats.

Given this, is it really surprising that non-mainstream candidates would happen in the US too, both with Trump and Bernie Sanders?

I'm actually surprised that Sanders isn't the Democratic frontrunner, especially when his only opponent is being investigated for espionage.

Comment author: Torchlight_Crimson 03 March 2016 08:05:34AM *  3 points [-]

Golden Dawn in Greece are genuine neo-nazis.

Depending no who you listen to, so's the National Front, Putin, anti-Putin, Trump, mainstream Republicans, insufficiently left-wing Democrats, etc.

Ok, so what's your reason for believing Golden Dawn are actually neo-nazi? (Edit: and what do you mean by "actual neo-nazi" anyway?)

Comment author: skeptical_lurker 11 March 2016 06:07:39AM *  1 point [-]

Just look at their flag:

https://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/17/Meandros_flag.svg/150px-Meandros_flag.svg.png&imgrefurl=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Dawn_(political_party)&h=100&w=150&tbnid=CDly4gAodIMPcM:&tbnh=80&tbnw=120&docid=g-53Bx9BWHOy2M&usg=__gcjSL8sDC3eM9-5mVj4vERTCyW8=&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi-oezK-bfLAhVpQpoKHY3fANQQ9QEIITAA)

It looks just like a swastika. Sure, Putin and Trump and anyone who is nationalistic can be compared to Nazis, but this cheapens the term 'Nazi' or 'fascist'.

By "actual neo-nazi" I mean a group which has significant use of Nazi imagery and when significant members explicitly endorse Nazism.

Comment author: Torchlight_Crimson 11 March 2016 07:31:41AM 1 point [-]

Just look at their flag

Seriously? You're only argument is that their flag looks like a Swastika if you squint just right?

Comment author: skeptical_lurker 11 March 2016 08:31:56AM 0 points [-]

The flag looks almost exactly like a swastica. Also, see hairyfigment's comment and read the wikipedia page. There is plenty more evidence.

They wouldn't have chosen that flag unless they were neo-nazis. If they really wanted that symbol, it could have been against a different color background.

Comment author: Lumifer 11 March 2016 04:15:27PM 2 points [-]

They wouldn't have chosen that flag unless they were neo-nazis.

You think so?

Comment author: hairyfigment 11 March 2016 08:02:33AM 0 points [-]

Glad you asked, Eugine:

The party denies that it has any official connection to Neo-Nazism. Although it uses the Roman salute, a salute used by the Italian Fascist and German National Socialist movements, it claims to draw its inspiration in this primarily from the 4th of August Regime established by Ioannis Metaxas...Likewise, the Golden Dawn's meander symbol, while sometimes compared to the National Socialist Swastika, is according to Golden Dawn a symbol drawn from Greek art, which the party sees as representing bravery and eternal struggle.[18][128]

Ilias Kasidiaris, a spokesman for Golden Dawn, wrote an article that was published in Golden Dawn magazine on 20 April 2011, in which he said, "What would the future of Europe and the whole modern world be like if World War II hadn't stopped the renewing route of National Socialism? Certainly, fundamental values which mainly derive from ancient Greek culture, would be dominant in every state and would define the fate of peoples. Romanticism as a spiritual movement and classicism would prevail against the decadent subculture that corroded the white man. Extreme materialism would have been discarded, giving its place to spiritual exaltation". In the same article, Adolf Hitler is characterized as a "great social reformer" and "military genius".[129]

In an article published in 1987 in the Golden Dawn magazine titled "Hitler for 1000 years", its editor Michaloliakos [see below] showed his support for Nazism and white supremacy.[130] Specifically he wrote, "We are the faithful soldiers of the National Socialist idea and nothing else" and "[...] WE EXIST, and continue the battle, the battle for the final victory of our race".[130] He ends the article by writing "1987, 42 years later, with our thought and soul given to the last great battle, with our thought and soul given to the black and red banners, with our thought and soul given to the memory of our great Leader, we raise our right hand up, we salute the Sun and with the courage, that is compelled by our military honor and our National Socialist duty we shout full of passion, faith to the future and our visions: HEIL HITLER!".[130]

...The founder of the party, Nikolaos Michaloliakos, appeared to give a Nazi salute in the Athens city council. He claims that it was merely "the salute of the national youth organisation of Ioannis Metaxas".[128][136]

Of course, society normally finds it easy to recognize and ostracize such blatantly dishonest Nazism. It doesn't create any actual confusion - unless people have gone out of their way to weaken society's immune system, eg by deliberately signalling Nazism when the reality is more obscure.

Comment author: Torchlight_Crimson 12 March 2016 01:34:37AM 2 points [-]

Of course, society normally finds it easy to recognize and ostracize such blatantly dishonest Nazism.

What do you mean by "normally" and can you find any examples of society that actually operated like you describe? Keep in mind the word "Nazi" was already being applied to anything and everything the speaker disliked as early as 1942.

Comment author: skeptical_lurker 11 March 2016 09:11:59AM 1 point [-]

It doesn't create any actual confusion - unless people have gone out of their way to weaken society's immune system, eg by deliberately signalling Nazism when the reality is more obscure.

I think it weakens the immune system more when anyone who isn't in favour of completely unrestricted immigration gets called a Nazi. And there's a failure mode where constantly calling people Nazis (or sexists/racists) makes them more favourable towards Nazis (the theory is that on a subconcious level they think 'if I'm a Nazi, maybe Nazism isn't so bad).

Comment author: Torchlight_Crimson 12 March 2016 01:32:37AM 1 point [-]

(the theory is that on a subconcious level they think 'if I'm a Nazi, maybe Nazism isn't so bad).

Or the more straightforward, if anyone proposing sensible immigration policy gets called a Nazi, eventually people conclude that "Nazi" means someone in favor of sensible immigration policy.

Comment author: skeptical_lurker 13 March 2016 06:02:34PM 1 point [-]

I agree, and I am trying to use words in a precise manner. Trump is not a Nazi. The Golden Dawn are.

Comment author: Torchlight_Crimson 13 March 2016 06:33:44PM 1 point [-]

LOL. Seriously, do you have any more evidence beyond "their symbol sotra looks like a swastika". How about you try looking for the factions in Greece using Nazi-style tactics, like say arresting their opponents on vague trumped up charges. Hint: it's not Golden Dawn.

Comment author: skeptical_lurker 13 March 2016 07:53:27PM 0 points [-]

Try the entire wikipedia page on them! Take these bits for instance:

Scholars and media have described it as neo-Nazi[4][13][14] and fascist,[5][15][16] though the group rejects these labels.[17] Members have expressed admiration of the former Greek dictator Ioannis Metaxas of the 4th of August Regime (1936–1941).[18] They have also made use of Nazi symbolism, and have praised figures of Nazi Germany in the past.[19][20][21] According to academic sources, the group is racist and xenophobic,[22][23] while the party's leader has openly identified it as nationalist and racist.[24]

On 23 July 2012, Artemis Matthaiopoulos, a member of Golden Dawn, was elected as MP for the town of Serres. The website left.gr (associated with Syriza), reported that Matthaiopoulos was the frontman of the Nazi punk band "Pogrom" and pointed to the band's song "Auschwitz" with antisemitic lyrics such as "fuck Anne Frank" and "Juden raus" ("Jews out").[142][143]

Now, I'm not endorsing the other factions, some of whom may well be Stalinists or terrorists. It is possible for there to be extremists on both the left and the right.

I know that 'Nazi' may be overused, but you surely must see that in this specific instance, that is what the Golden Dawn are.

Unless the entire wikipedia page and the sources are all fraudulent...

Comment author: Torchlight_Crimson 13 March 2016 11:57:15PM *  4 points [-]

Scholars and media have described it as neo-Nazi[4][13][14] and fascist,[5][15][16]

Well, everyone to the right of Stalin has been described as neo-Nazi by scholars.

though the group rejects these labels.[17]

I guess there goes your "explicitly endorse Nazism" claim.

I know that 'Nazi' may be overused, but you surely must see that in this specific instance, that is what the Golden Dawn are.

Weren't people saying the same thing about the National Front ~20 years ago?

Comment author: skeptical_lurker 14 March 2016 07:42:27AM 0 points [-]

I guess there goes your "explicitly endorse Nazism" claim.

I said if "significant members explicitly endorse Nazism", and in this case it seems at least one elected official does, even if the group doesn't.

Weren't people saying the same thing about the National Front ~20 years ago?

Perhaps. I'm not an expert on the history of European politics.

Comment author: Lumifer 14 March 2016 02:48:26PM -1 points [-]

I know that 'Nazi' may be overused, but you surely must see that in this specific instance, that is what the Golden Dawn are.

You did mention "using words precisely" at some point. If you still wish to do that, the word "Nazi" is a very specific word -- it refers to things associated with the National Socialist German Workers' Party. I am pretty sure members of Golden Dawn are not members of NSDAP as well.

A better word for you might be "fascist". It is more general -- there certainly were more fascists than nazis -- and describes a particular type of ideology (which originated in Italy, by the way).

The word "neo-nazi", in contemporary parlance, doesn't mean much beyond "I don't like these people".

Note that it's perfectly possible to be racist, xenophobic, nationalist, and anti-semitic and still not be a Nazi or a fascist.

Comment author: buybuydandavis 01 March 2016 10:18:44AM 3 points [-]

probably powered by the ability to organise grassroots activism via the net.

The ideological gate keepers are losing control. The Cologne cover up looks like a pretty significant event for discrediting the Top Men.

On Sanders, all the Democratic Powers that Be lined up behind Clinton, and even Sanders got in lock step to maintain that Clinton's email catastrophe is much ado about nothing. The Democratic Party has spent a couple of decades dealing with Clinton scandals. It's all just a cast right wing conspiracy, don't you know?

Probably the biggest hit Hillary has taken is from younger women, turned off by HIllary "standing by her man" and attacking his sexual abuse accusers, Gloria Steinem belittling Bernie gals as boy crazy for Bernie Bros, and Albright playing the Vote Vagina or Go to Hell card.

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