Vaniver comments on Open Thread March 21 - March 27, 2016 - Less Wrong Discussion
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Has there been any response to Brett Hall's critique of Bostrom's Superintelligence? What do y'all think? http://www.bretthall.org/superintelligence.html
I wish I had read the ending first; Hall is relying heavily on Deutsch to make his case. Deutsch has come up on LW before, most relevantly here. An earlier comment of mine still seems true: I think Deutsch is pointing in the right direction and diagnosing the correct problems, but I think Deutsch underestimates the degree to which other people have diagnosed the same problems and are working on solutions to address those problems.
Hall's critique is multiple parts, so I'm writing my response part by part. Horizontal lines distinguish breaks, like so:
It starts off with reasoning by analogy, which is generally somewhat suspect. In this particular analogy, you have two camps:
Builders, who build ever-higher towers, hoping that they will one day achieve flight (though they don't know how that will work theoretically).
Theorists, who think that they're missing something, maybe to do with air, and that the worries the builders have about spontaneous liftoff don't make sense, because height doesn't have anything to do with flight.
But note that when it comes to AI, the dividing lines are different. Bostrom gets flak for not knowing the details of modern optimization and machine learning techniques (and I think that flak is well-targeted), but Bostrom is fundamentally concerned about theoretical issues. It's the builders--the Ngs of the world who focus on adding another layer to their tower--who think that things will just work out okay instead of putting effort into ensuring that things will work out okay.
That is, the x-risk argument is the combination of a few pieces of theory: the Orthogonality Thesis, that intelligence can be implemented in silicon (the universality of intelligence), and that there aren't hard constraints to intelligence anywhere near the level of human intelligence.
One paragraphs, two paragraphs, three paragraphs... when are we going to get to the substance?
Okay, 5 paragraphs in, we get the idea that "Bayesian reasoning" is an error. Why? Supposedly he'll tell us later.
The last paragraph is good, as a statement of the universality of computation.
And the first paragraph is one of the core disagreements. Hall correctly diagnoses that we don't understand human thought at the level that we can program it. (Once we do, then we have AGI, and we don't have AGI yet.) But Hall then seems to claim that, basically, unless we're already there we won't know when we'll get there. Which is true but immaterial; right now we can estimate when we'll get there, and what our estimate is determines how we should approach.
And then the latter half of this section is just bad. There's some breakdown in communication between Bostrom and Hall; Bostrom's argument, as I understand it, is not that you get enough hardware and then the intelligence problem solves itself. (This is the "the network has become self-aware!" sci-fi model of AGI creation.) The argument is that there's some algorithmic breakthrough necessary to get to AGI, but that the more hardware you have, the smaller that breakthrough is.
(That is, suppose the root of intelligence was calculating matrix determinants. There are slow ways and fast ways to do that--if you have huge amounts of hardware, coming across Laplace Expansion is enough, but if you have small amounts of hardware, you can squeak by only if you have fast matrix multiplication.)
One major point of contention between AI experts is, basically, how many software breakthroughs we have left until AGI. It could be the case that it's two; it could be the case that it's twenty. If it's two, then we expect it to happen fairly quickly; if it's twenty, then we expect it to happen fairly slowly. This uncertainty means we cannot rule out it happening quickly.
The claim that programs do not engage in creativity and criticism is simply wrong. This is the heart and soul of numerical optimization, metaheuristic programs in particular. Programs are creative and critical beyond the abilities of humans in the narrow domains that we've been able to communicate to those programs, but the fundamental math of creativity and criticism exist (in the terms of sampling from a solution space, especially in ways that make use of solutions that we've already considered, and objective functions that evaluate those solutions). The question is how easily we will be able to scale from well-defined problems (like routing trucks or playing Go) to poorly-defined problems (like planning marketing campaigns or international diplomacy).
Part 4 is little beyond "I disagree with the Orthogonality Thesis." That is, it sees value disagreements as irrationality. Bonus points for declaring Bayesian reasoning false for little reason that I can see besides "Deutsch disagrees with it" (which, I think, is due to Deutsch's low familiarity with the math of causal models, which I think are the solution he correctly thinks is missing with EDT-ish Bayesian reasoning).
Not seeing anything worth commenting on in part 5.
Part 6 includes a misunderstanding of Arrow's Theorem. (Arrow's Theorem is a no-go theorem, but it doesn't rule out the thing Hall thinks it rules out. If the AI is allowed to, say, flip a coin when it's indifferent, Arrow's Theorem no longer applies.)
Thanks for the in-depth response, Vaniver! I don't have a good grasp on these issues so it helps reading others' analyses.
You're welcome!
If you have time for another, I'd be interested in your response to Goertzel's critique of Superintelligence:
http://jetpress.org/v25.2/goertzel.htm
Overall, very sensible. I'll ignore minor quibbles (a 'strong AI' and a 'thinking machine' seem significantly different to me, since the former implies recursion but the latter doesn't) and focus on the main points of disagreement.
Goertzel goes on to question how likely Omohundro's basic AI drives are to be instantiated. Might an AI that doesn't care for value-preservation outcompete an AI that does?
Overall this seems very worth thinking about, but I think Goertzel draws the wrong conclusions. If we have a 'race-to-the-bottom' of competition between AGI, that suggests evolutionary pressures to me, and evolutionary pressures seem to be the motivation for expecting the AI drives in the first place. Yes, an AGI that doesn't have any sort of continuity impulses might be able to create a more powerful successor than an AGI that does have continuity impulses. But that's the start of the race, not the end of the race--any AGI that doesn't value continuity will edit itself out of existence pretty quickly, whereas those that do won't.
The nightmare scenario, of course, is an AGI that improves rapidly in the fastest direction possible, and then gets stuck somewhere unpleasant for humans.
And since I used the phrase "nightmare scenario," a major disagreement between Goertzel and Bostrom is over the role of uncertainty when it comes to danger. Much later, Goertzel brings up the proactionary principle and precautionary principle.
Bostrom's emotional argument, matching the precautionary approach, seems to be "things might go well, they might go poorly, because there's the possibility it could go poorly we must worry until we find a way to shut off that possibility."
Goertzel's emotional argument, matching the proactionary approach, seems to be "things might go well, they might go poorly, but why conclude that they will go poorly? We don't know enough." See, as an example, this quote:
Earlier, Goertzel correctly observes that we're not going to make a random mind, we're going to make a mind in a specific way. But the Bostromian counterargument is that because we don't know where that specific way leads us, we don't have a guarantee that it's different from making a random mind! It would be nice if we knew where safe destinations were, and how to create pathways to funnel intelligences towards those destinations.
Which also seems relevant here:
I view the Bostromian approach as saying "safety comes from principles; if we don't follow those principles, disaster will result. We don't know what principles will actually lead to safety." Goertzel seems to respond with "yes, not following proper principles could lead to disaster, but we might end up accidentally following them as easily as we might end up accidentally violating them." Which is on as solid a logical foundation as Bostrom's position that things like the orthogonality thesis are true "in principle," and which seems more plausible or attractive seems to be almost more a question of personal psychology or reasoning style than it is evidence or argumentation.
This is, I think, a fairly common position--a decision on whether to risk the world on AGI should be made knowing that there are other background risks that the AGI might materially diminish. (Supposing one estimates that a particular AGI project is a 3 in a thousand chance of existential collapse, one still has work to do in determining whether or not that's a lower or higher risk than not doing that particular AGI project.)
I don't see any reason yet to think Bostrom's ability to estimate probabilities in this area are any better than Goertzel's, or vice versa; I think that the more AI safety research we do, the easier it is to pull the trigger on an AGI project, and the sooner we can do so. I agree with Goertzel that it's not obvious that AI research slowdown is desirable, let alone possible, but it is obvious to me that AI safety research speedup is desirable.
I think Goertzel overstates the benefit of open AI development, but agree with him that Bostrom and Yudkowsky overstate the benefit of closed AI development.
I haven't read about open-ended intelligence yet. My suspicion, from Goertzel's description of it, is that I'll find it less satisfying than the reward-based view. My personal model of intelligence is much more inspired by control theory. The following statement, for example, strikes me as somewhat bizarre:
I don't see how you get rid of optimization without also getting rid of preferences, or choosing a very narrow definition of 'optimization.'
I think that there's something of a communication barrier between the Goertzelian approach of "development" and the Yudkowskyian approach of "value preservation." On the surface, the two of those appear to contradict each other--a child who preserves their values will never become an adult--but I think the synthesis of the two is the correct approach--value preservation is what it looks like when a child matures into an adult, rather than into a tumor. If value is fragile, most processes of change are not the sort of maturation that we want, but are instead the sort of degeneration that we don't want; and it's important to learn the difference between them and make sure that we can engineer that difference.
Biology has already (mostly) done that work for us, and so makes it look easy--which the Bostromian camp thinks is a dangerous illusion.
Thank you for taking the time to write that up. I strongly disagree, as you probably know, but it provided a valuable perspective into understanding the difference in viewpoint.
No two rationalists can agree to disagree... but pragmatists sometimes must.
You're welcome!
Did we meet at AAAI when it was in Austin, or am I thinking of another Mark? (I do remember our discussion here on LW, I'm just curious if we also talked outside of LW.)
No I'm afraid you're confusing me with someone else. I haven't had the chance yet to see the fair city of Austin or attend AAAI, although I would like to. My current day job isn't in the AI field so it would sadly be an unjustifiable expense.
To elaborate on the prior point, I have for some time engaged with not just yourself, but other MIRI-affiliated researchers as well as Nate and Luke before him. MIRI, FHI, and now FLI have been frustrating to me as their PR engagements have set the narrative and in some cases taken money that otherwise would have gone towards creating the technology that will finally allow us to end pain and suffering in the world. But instead funds and researcher attention are going into basic maths and philosophy that have questionable relevance to the technologies at hand.
However the precautionary vs proactionary description sheds a different light. If you think precautionary approaches are defensible, in spite of overwhelming evidence of their ineffectiveness, then I don't think this is a debate worth having.
I'll go back to proactively building AI.
If one looks as AI systems as including machine learning development, I think the estimate is something like a thousand times as many resources are spent on development as on safety research. I don't think taking all of the safety money and putting it into 'full speed ahead!' would make much difference in time to AGI creation, but I do think transferring funds in the reverse direction may make a big difference for what that pain and suffering is replaced with.
So, in my day job I do build AI systems, but not the AGI variety. I don't have the interest in mathematical logic necessary to do the sort of work MIRI does. I'm just glad that they are doing it, and hopeful that it turns out to make a difference.
Because everyone is working on machine learning, but machine learning is not AGI. AI is the engineering techniques for making programs that act intelligently. AGI is the process for taking those components and actually constructing something useful. It is the difference between computer science and a computer scientist. Machine learning is very useful for doing inference. But AGI is so much more than that, and there are very few resources being spent on AGI issues.
By the way, you should consider joining ##hplusroadmap on Freenode IRC. There's a community of pragmatic engineers there working on a variety of transhumanist projects, and you AI experience would be valued. Say hi to maaku or kanzure when you join.
Deutsch briefly summarized his view on AI risks in this podcast episode: https://youtu.be/J21QuHrIqXg?t=3450 (Unfortunately there is no transcript.)
What are your thoughts on his views apart from what you've touched upon above?
Thank you for sparing us the time to sift throught the garbage... Why the hell any discussion about AGI must start with a bad flight analogy?