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reguru comments on Open Thread, Aug 29. - Sept 5. 2016 - Less Wrong Discussion

6 Post author: Elo 29 August 2016 02:28AM

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Comment author: reguru 10 September 2016 02:45:56PM *  0 points [-]

Here we again have usage of the word "arational" without an indication of what's meant with it. Earlier in this thread there was a charge that the video mixes two distinct context together. If you want to learn you could take that suggestion to become more clear and speak about what you mean.

Arational is independent of reasoning and understanding. It is what it is, any map is not the arational.

I'm made up of neurons that exist in the physical world.

That's a logical conclusion, a map. You haven't seen your own neurons and even if you could in this very moment, you couldn't be the neurons which you are seeing. You are constant, you can become aware of the neurons which you observing somehow, but you know that it's not you. Even if you somehow could look into your brain, there would always be a middle-man, a mirror, a computer, screen, the software that runs the computer and so forth.

If you exclude all of which you think is you, you will be left with you, no doubt. By that, I mean truly excluding all the senses, thoughts and everything which you think is you. All non-constants. You do not change. The body changes, thoughts changes, senses, feelings changes. You cannot be something which changes, you can become aware of the changes.

When you have increased your awareness in this way, and after you have excluded everything you think is you (including the I thought) and in desperation, your brain will finally show you who you are. Which might be the arational.

Speculation: Being arational does not require a map, even if some may call it "void" "nothingness" "nothing and everything" or the experience "enlightenment". Since you become arational, you were and already are everything. Technically, you are your environment and the environment doesn't exist or revolve around a "you" I think, from neurophilosophy or something.

When talking subjective experiences of experiencing things, whatever it is might actually be objective.

Now these are extraordinary claims which for me is speculation, it is a map like any other and I was just thinking out loud, even if it might not be relevant to the discussion. Sorry about that.

Noticing that you don't understand is a good first step. It's usually required for learning. Learning is hard when one already thinks one understands. In rationalist terms that's the skill of "noticing confusion"

In the same way, you wouldn't buy an expensive object if you already had said expensive object, because you think you already have something, you don't think you need something.

Basically you argue that there the meaning of language as if language is made up of plantonic ideals and in the next sentence you say that everything is just a map and therefore there's no such thing as the meaning. That's internally inconsistent.

I don't understand again, I mean that language is a map, all communication, every letter, every word, it's a human projection. I t ' s a h u m a n p r o j e c t i o n a n d n o t t t r u e .

As far as the substance goes, you argue against "isa" statements and that "A is not B" when that isn't claimed. The claim is "A references B". Reference is a concept that's distinct from identity ("isa").

I understand that everything is a reference, and some might not think about it. But what's the different between "is x" and "references to x" it's just a shortcut to say "is x"? Even if "is x" might be argued is flawed, like you think I mean, so the counter argument is "I reference to x, which means, is x in my language" but what I mean is that everything is a map, human projection, reference or not. The arational exists outside of reasoning etc.

Comment author: ChristianKl 12 September 2016 08:53:03PM 0 points [-]

Arational is independent of reasoning and understanding. It is what it is, any map is not the arational.

Are you advocating cartesian dualism?

That's a logical conclusion, a map. You haven't seen your own neurons and even if you could in this very moment, you couldn't be the neurons which you are seeing.

You confuse ontology and epistology. It might not be possible for me to prove that I'm made up of neurons but that doesn't mean that I'm not made up of neurons. You can't go from one to the other easily.

I don't understand again, I mean that language is a map, all communication, every letter, every word, it's a human projection. I t ' s a h u m a n p r o j e c t i o n a n d n o t t t r u e .

You seem to have an understanding of what's true is supposed to mean that you unquestioningly accept. A concept that you learned as a child and where you now get into trouble because it doesn't matches the complex reality. The problem is the concept that you have in your head.

The fact that the concepts inside your head doesn't make sense doesn't mean that other people can't reason and don't mean something useful when they speak of truth.

But what's the different between "is x" and "references to x" it's just a shortcut to say "is x"?

References is a different concept than identity and "is". It's a concept that you currently don't seem to understand.

In computer programming it's different to store a pointer than to store a variable that contains it's own data. Can you follow the analogy in the realm of computers?

Comment author: TheAncientGeek 13 September 2016 11:15:19AM 0 points [-]

Are you advocating cartesian dualism?

Sounds to me more like the Vedantic monism of self-is-all, to me.

Comment author: ChristianKl 13 September 2016 02:14:39PM 0 points [-]

Vedantic monism doesn't have independence but 'everything is connected'.

Comment author: reguru 12 September 2016 09:22:46PM *  0 points [-]

Are you advocating cartesian dualism?

No, non-dualism where the territory is what you are and all maps are simply human projections. But by direct experience, not by writing of it, you, actually investigating yourself.

You confuse ontology and epistology. It might not be possible for me to prove that I'm made up of neurons but that doesn't mean that I'm not made up of neurons. You can't go from one to the other easily.

I don't know, but still is the neurons a map within the territory? With my claim that you are the territory, by direct experience of it yourself, (not objective, subjective).

You seem to have an understanding of what's true is supposed to mean that you unquestioningly accept. A concept that you learned as a child and where you now get into trouble because it doesn't matches the complex reality. The problem is the concept that you have in your head. The fact that the concepts inside your head doesn't make sense doesn't mean that other people can't reason and don't mean something useful when they speak of truth.

True in relation to the arational. One small truth over the other is irrelvant to the larger picture, but within the picture they are. But it's only subjective experience, by the nature of this investigation.

References is a different concept than identity and "is". It's a concept that you currently don't seem to understand. In computer programming it's different to store a pointer than to store a variable that contains it's own data. Can you follow the analogy in the realm of computers?

That's a clarification, but regardless it is quite irrelevant to what we're discussing I think (or what I want to discuss).

Comment author: ChristianKl 13 September 2016 02:41:05PM *  0 points [-]

That's a clarification, but regardless it is quite irrelevant to what we're discussing I think (or what I want to discuss).

It's relevant to the concept of what a reference happens to be. Of course if you are not interested in learning that or discussing it, than there's no reason to talk about it.

Comment author: ChristianKl 13 September 2016 09:38:21AM *  0 points [-]

No, non-dualism where the territory is what you are and all maps are simply human projections. But by direct experience, not by writing of it, you, actually investigating yourself.

In dualism the maps in my head and what I am on a physical level are independent. In the physicalist view of the world the maps in our heads are dependent on neuron wiring patterns. You seem to argue that the dualist view is true. Otherwise you don't get your independence.

Comment author: reguru 13 September 2016 10:21:18AM 0 points [-]

What makes you think I am arguing for the dualist view? Is it the overall impression or some certain statements?

I do write "subjective experience" and so forth to ease in and try and make this a bit more understandable. :D

Comment author: ChristianKl 13 September 2016 02:39:04PM 0 points [-]

You speak of an reality that's rationalist being independent from one that's arational. If they are truly independent you have at least a dualist view (and possible more categories).

Comment author: reguru 13 September 2016 03:28:20PM *  0 points [-]

What I mean is that you don't exist, but arational reality does and "you" is the entirety of reality. The body which you see is a part of arational reality. But you can only experience this yourself. Talking of it is the same thing, it is thinking (when what I am saying is that we should not think) because it's just creating maps upon maps. If you just look around, imagine this is arational reality. Then you name an object, that's a thought, which is a map. When thoughts are quiet and you are not labeling and you have given up the notion of "you" existing, you have merged.

Of course it requires you to do the work, and it's probably going to take a long time to give up the map of "you", I haven't done it myself.

Comment author: ChristianKl 13 September 2016 05:49:23PM 0 points [-]

You seem to be strongly attached to whether or not something exist and the binary classification of something either existing or not.

Of course it requires you to do the work, and it's probably going to take a long time to give up the map of "you",

That suggests that I have a single map of "I". That doesn't happen to be the case. There might have been a time where my level of introspection was structured in a way where it's true but that's not the case today.

You argument resolves around you yourself having a wrong map that you haven't given up. As a practical matter it's questionable whether you are even at the moment on a course that leads in a direction of giving it up, but that would be a debate about spiritual guidance.

Comment author: reguru 13 September 2016 06:43:42PM 0 points [-]

You seem to be strongly attached to whether or not something exist and the binary classification of something either existing or not.

No, I think it's unlikely, however.

That suggests that I have a single map of "I". That doesn't happen to be the case. There might have been a time where my level of introspection was structured in a way where it's true but that's not the case today.

You aren't enlightened are you? It's unlikely that you aren't in the trap of the ego otherwise.

You argument resolves around you yourself having a wrong map that you haven't given up. As a practical matter it's questionable whether you are even at the moment on a course that leads in a direction of giving it up, but that would be a debate about spiritual guidance.

Of course, I am becoming more aware of it. I do think that I am on the course of giving it up, one can give it up at any moment, but it might just happen randomly.

My argument also revolves around placing you and others on the path.

Comment author: Lumifer 13 September 2016 06:52:25PM 1 point [-]

My argument also revolves around placing you and others on the path.

What makes you think you're qualified to place others on specific paths?

Comment author: ChristianKl 13 September 2016 08:08:47PM 0 points [-]

You aren't enlightened are you? It's unlikely that you aren't in the trap of the ego otherwise.

Whether you want to use the binary enlightened/unenlightened distinction is up to you. I'm not a fan of binary classifications.

I'm just saying that you are making assumptions about me that are not true. You likely don't have preexisting categories for the state in which I happen to be when it comes to my relationship with the self.

My argument also revolves around placing you and others on the path.

Basically you are inspired by an idea and try to preach it to people who think differently and categorize other people on a path where they are less evolved than you are. In a Buddhist view, that would likely be seen as strong attachment to ego. From the way you are writting it appears like you don't have self awareness of that fact. The people I know who had samadi experiences are not like that but are generally more self aware of drives like that. They also generally aren't attached to binary classfication as much. It also seems that you don't have awareness of how that issue affects you.

It gives the impression that you think you have read a book and the task is simply about implementing the concepts through work. And maybe through spreeding the gospel. That's however not how it works. It's a typical approach for New Agey people and those often don't get very deep because they treat some knowledge as dogma with prevents letting go of concepts.

That said, I'm not seeking the end that the Buddhist seek. I'm also not saying that anybody should.