Open thread, June 26 - July 2, 2017

Thomas

If it's worth saying, but not worth its own post, then it goes here.

Notes for future OT posters:

1. Please add the 'open_thread' tag.

2. Check if there is an active Open Thread before posting a new one. (Immediately before; refresh the list-of-threads page before posting.)

3. Open Threads should start on Monday, and end on Sunday.

4. Unflag the two options "Notify me of new top level comments on this article" and "Make this post available under..." before submitting

If it's worth saying, but not worth its own post, then it goes here.

Notes for future OT posters:

1. Please add the 'open_thread' tag.

2. Check if there is an active Open Thread before posting a new one. (Immediately before; refresh the list-of-threads page before posting.)

3. Open Threads should start on Monday, and end on Sunday.

4. Unflag the two options "Notify me of new top level comments on this article" and "Make this post available under..." before submitting

There's no necessity for any sort of outside force guiding human evolution, or any pre-existing thing it's trying to mimic, therefore we shouldn't presume one.

I didn't say anything about an outside force guiding us. I am saying that if the structure of reality has characteristics in which certain moral values produce evolutionary successful outcomes, it follows that these moral values correspond to an objective evolutionary reality.

Does this remove meaning from wetness, and from thirst?

You are talking about meanings referring to what something is. But moral values are concerned with how we should act in the world. It is the old "ought from an is" issue. You can always drill in with horrific thought experiments concerning good and evil. For example:

Would it be OK to enslave half of humanity and use them as constantly tortured, self replicating, power supplies for the other half if we can find a system that would guaranty that they can never escape to threaten our own safety? If the system is efficient and you have no concept of good and evil why do you think that is wrong? Whatever your answer is try to ask why again until you reach the point where you get an "ought from an is" without a value presupposition.

I didn't say anything about an outside force guiding us. I am saying that if the structure of reality has characteristics in which certain moral values produce evolutionary successful outcomes, it follows that these moral values correspond to an objective evolutionary reality

I agree that this is a perfectly fine way to think of things. We may not disagree on any factual questions.

Here's a factual question some people get tripped up by: would any sufficiently intelligent being rediscover and be motivated by a morality that looks a lot like human morality... (read more)