Open thread, June 26 - July 2, 2017

Thomas

If it's worth saying, but not worth its own post, then it goes here.

Notes for future OT posters:

1. Please add the 'open_thread' tag.

2. Check if there is an active Open Thread before posting a new one. (Immediately before; refresh the list-of-threads page before posting.)

3. Open Threads should start on Monday, and end on Sunday.

4. Unflag the two options "Notify me of new top level comments on this article" and "Make this post available under..." before submitting

If it's worth saying, but not worth its own post, then it goes here.

Notes for future OT posters:

1. Please add the 'open_thread' tag.

2. Check if there is an active Open Thread before posting a new one. (Immediately before; refresh the list-of-threads page before posting.)

3. Open Threads should start on Monday, and end on Sunday.

4. Unflag the two options "Notify me of new top level comments on this article" and "Make this post available under..." before submitting

I see what you're saying with the first part of your argument and it's good the subject at least crosses your mind, but for my moral framework, it isn't solely about utilitarian ethics. I don't think happy animals should be killed for the same reason I don't think humans should be killed in their sleep. You may bring up that humans have ideas for the future and such, but do babies? Why then is it wrong to kill babies? Because they will be more conscious in the future, perhaps. How about the severely mentally disabled than? Right here we see an argument from marginal cases. Severely mentally disabled somehow have rights but the other animals don't.

Now with the second part of your first paragraph, I think that's more about you acting on your ethical principles, which you really aren't. You admit that you are supporting sup optimal lives, which confuses me. Do you not have the will to act? Maybe you're just fearful of change. You admit switching on and off would be slow. Why not just full switch, or at least try it?

I think many here make the false assumption that a vegan life is less enjoyable.

As for the second paragraph, I think this gets into an argument about abortion as well. The best position I've come up with for all of that is that beings that aren't conscious aren't worth anything, but as soon as they become conscious they are worth something even if they go unconscious afterward. This position isn't perfect, but any other position leads to extremely absurd conclusions.

Thanks for a more in depth response btw!

How about the severely mentally disabled

If it's severe enough, I think this is a cultural question that could go either way, not an categorical evil. There are probably relatively good places in the Moral Landscape where this kind of thing is allowed. In the current culture, it would violate important Schelling points about not killing humans and such. Other things would have to change to protect against potential abuse, before this can be allowed.

2Screwtape9y

A question. Would you rather be born and live for thirty years and then be executed, or never be born at all? To me, the answer depends on how I was going to live those thirty years. Well fed and sheltered while hanging out in a great open space with a small community of peers? That sounds pretty good to me. Locked in a tiny box with no stimulation? Quite possibly not. (I have a really strong desire for my own existence, even in the face of that existence being terrible, but I generally treat that as a weird quirk of my own mind.) Remember, the choice isn't between living for thirty years before being killed vs living my natural lifespan and dying in bed of old age. Very few people would keep cows as pets. The choice is between a short life that ends when you get killed and not existing in the first place. To be clear, I think preferring to not exist is consistent, it's just not what I would pick. This is almost certainly Typical Minding again, but if I was going to die I would prefer to die usefully. Maybe heroically saving someone else's life, maybe just donating any serviceable organs and offering whats left to science or medical students. If it was legal and efficient, I wouldn't actually mind being eaten after I died. (I am planning to make extraordinary efforts to prolong my life, but what that means to me is a little odd.) If it's not about utilitarian ethics, what is it about? Why is it wrong to kill a human in their sleep? For me, killing humans is wrong because then other humans might kill me (Kantian reasons basically, with a bit of Hobbes thrown in =P) as well as because they are like me and will probably enjoy living (utilitarian reasons) and because "thou shalt not kill" is a really good deontological rule that helps people live together. Oh, and I'd probably get arrested and sent to jail. Of those, all of them protect a baby or a severely mentally disabled person, and the only one that protects a cow is the utilitarian reason. Cows aren't going to