Hi. I'm Clarisse Thorn, a BDSM educator and activist. I blog at [ http://clarissethorn.wordpress.com/ ]. Props to Michael Bishop for directing me to your post.
Wow, where to begin. I'll try not to get too upset, but for me, this was a really bad start to your post:
::::::::::: Many people think of masochism as a sexual perversion :::::::::::
Why did you start right out by referring to BDSM as a "sexual perversion"? Couldn't you have chosen some less judgmental words? Seriously, it would have been so easy. You could have just said "sexual preference". Instead, you chose to use language loaded with stigma.
::::::::::: When we find ourselves acting masochistically, should we try to "correct" it? :::::::::::
Amazingly, people are different and do things for different reasons. I assume you agree. Perhaps this means that if people find themselves acting masochistically, they should take different actions depending on their individual personalities.
I don't have much to say about non-sexual masochism, but I have a lot to say about sexual masochism ....
Many people see BDSM as an inbuilt sexual identity or "orientation". In that case, "corre...
I very often read things in this community that suggests that sexuality is very much not one of the matters on which they have succeeded in being rational.
For the record, I'm a practicing sadomasochist; I enjoy both sadism and masochism, and have a large range of paraphenalia to that end. I'm having an absolutely fantastic time with it, and though I know tastes differ, from where I'm sitting if you're not a sadomasochist then you're missing out on the great fun we're having.
I seem to recall Robin asking whether learning about wine increased your ability to take pleasure in good wine, or just spoiled your enjoyment of cheap wine.
Note that one doesn't need to be actively bigoted in order to do harm. The vast majority of those who are slowing down the spread of rational thought aren't religious fundamentalists out to stop rationality; no, they're the completely innocent ones who unthinkingly pass on cached thoughts.
It's no different when it comes to attitudes concerning, say, BDSM. I don't for a moment think that Goetz was actively bigoted when he wrote that. That doesn't mean that he shouldn't have worded it differently. More generally... it's often dangerous to think "but (he isn't / I am not) bigoted", as if only active bigots could say harmful things. Once the harmfulness of what they're saying is pointed out to them, they automatically go on the defensive - after all, only bigots say bad things, and they're not a bigot, so the other person must simply be oversensitive.
This probably deserves a top-level post.
I don't think pain and failure are the same thing. I like spicy food quite a bit, and I think it's the intensity as much as anything.
On the other hand, my reaction is a straightforward "Oh goody! Spicy food!"-- the kick has nothing to do with a satisfaction in overcoming my own resistance. I believe a lot of the attraction of endurance sports (something I don't feel) is in the latter.
My impression is that masochism includes both motivations.
I believe that intensity is a very strong motivation-- for some people it's a stronger motivation than safe...
But there are ordinary, acceptable behaviors
So, sexual perversion isn't ordinary or acceptable?
Pain triggers endorphins in order to help us fight or flee, and it feels good.
This is certainly an explanation consistent with BDSM usage of pain, and can be entirely independent of any sexual component.
Question 2: Doubtless some of the behaviors I listed have completely different explanations, some of which might not involve masochism at all. Which do you think involve enjoying pain? Can you cluster them by causal mechanism?
None of the examples necessarily involve the enjoyment of pain so they don't necessarily fit the technical meaning of masochism. They do fit the colloquial definition of masochism though, which is somewhat different. More along the lines of 'enjoying doing things that make you feel like a tough badass even though pain may be an u...
The psychologist Michael Bader recently wrote a rather nice book that touches on this subject, called Arousal: The Secret Logic of Sexual Fantasies.
His analysis of masochism (among many other things) is that it helps the masochist feel safe in a way that allows their desire freedom to be expressed.
For example:
I'll add another hypothesis. There are plenty of simple, harmless ways to induce pain of almost unlimited intensity, while doing the same with pleasure tends to involve nasty side-effects. Due to neuroplasticity, we can train ourselves to get our pleasure/pain wires crossed, thereby making intense pleasure "cheaper."
This would explain why children often at first dislike spicy food, horror films, roller coasters, etc.
I'm not sure how much this applies to "being Bruce."
I was surprised not to find any evo-psych explanations for masochism on the web; or even any general theory of masochism that tried to unite two different behaviors.
Keith Henson's Evolutionary Psychology, Memes, and the Origins of War suggests an explanation in passing.
What about 5. Linkage to another belief that causes us to associate so-called masochistic behavior with something good?
Some people like BDSM because they like the feeling of someone being else in control. Some people like being hit because they associate it with the love of their parents. Some people wallow in bad feelings because that's how they learned to get attention.
I think question 2 is an important one. These behaviors can be logically grouped together as "masochistic', but the kinds of "bad" that they move towards are completel...
Playing extremely difficult video games, such as I Wanna Be The Guy, seems to be another form of entertainment related to masochism.
Also, rock music seems to be part of its own progression, based on slightly earlier styles such as blues, ragtime, and jazz, which have their roots in African music.
Several of the items on your list have straightforward explanations that are variations on 3. In partiular, horror movies and rollercoasters are a controlled means of inducing fear for the emotional response it causes; and spicy food, if by that you mean food with substantial capsaicin levels, is a controlled and completely safe means of inducing arbitrary levels of pain in order to enjoy the resulting endorphin high.
On the other hand, while I'm not familiar with Alban Berg, I voluntarily listen to "music" that probably puts his work to shame in ...
Question 3: When we find ourselves acting masochistically, should we try to "correct" it? Or is it part of a healthy human's nature? If so, what's the evolutionary-psych explanation?
Um. The evolutionary-psych explanation is Azathoth does not care about your happiness. If there are instances where masochism makes one more likely to win, then masochists will survive. It seems obvious that there are, especially if that masochism is context-sensitive.
Webern is actually on my playlist. 5 Movements isn't unpleasant, and 2 Arrangements of Bach's Fuga (Ricercata) is awesome.
there is nothing inherently wrong with masochism and it would certainly be sad to eliminate all the experiences you list above.
Vivaldi -> Bach -> Mozart -> Beethoven -> Wagner -> Stravinsky -> Berg -> screw it, let's invent rock and roll and start over
I'm afraid your model of music history is no better than your model of Eliezer's mind.
I don't want to get into the numerous problems with this right now, other than to say that it is supremely annoying when people speak about popular music (such as rock and roll) as if it were the "successor" of art music of the past. The successor to the art music of the past is the art music of the present. (That m...
no one seems to do the experiment of writing a "story" which consists entirely of friends getting together for a good meal and pleasant conversation, with nothing at all going wrong and not the faintest threat on even the most remote horizon.
Well, there is a certain fictional genre of which a large component comprises vignettes involving people getting together for mutually enjoyable social interaction, with no threats and indeed not much reference to anything outside of that interaction.
It is, admittedly, an extremely low-status genre... but it enjoys a certain robust-though-discreet popularity nonetheless, both in text and video. (Albeit I suspect more the latter than the former.)
Not sure what, if anything, follows from this.
Vivaldi -> Bach -> Mozart -> Beethoven -> Wagner -> Stravinsky -> Berg -> screw it, let's invent rock and roll and start over
I'm afraid your model of music history is no better than your model of Eliezer's mind.
I don't want to get into the numerous problems with this right now, other than to say that it is supremely annoying when people speak about popular music (such as rock and roll) as if it were the "successor" of art of music of the past. The successor to the art music of the past is the art music of the present. (Tha...
If so, what should we call the more general phenomenon of "deriving pleasure from one's own pain"
I don't know, but not "masochism." Whether these behaviors even hang together as a "general phenomenon" is an empirical question that is not yet answered. Let's look at some of Phil's examples:
- Listening to music turned up so loud that it hurts
Are people who do this actually enjoying the pain, or they merely tolerate it because they like loud music?
- Movies, especially horror movies
- Roller coasters
I once read that one of the main enjoyments in horror movies is not watching it, but the relief afterward; if true, this would be a difference from masochism. Another difference from masochism is that horror movies may be experienced as scary, while in masochism, sensations that would normally be painful are not necessarily experienced as painful.
However, a component that horror movies share with masochism and rollercoasters is arousal of the sympathetic nervous system (i.e. fight-or-flight). Whether horror movies also result in release of endorphins, like exercise and masochism, I don't know.
- Enjoying exercise
My guess is that in painful exercise, people aren't really deriving pleasure from their pain. Rather, pain is signifying that they are getting closer to their exercise goals, and is linked to feelings of accomplishment. People may derive pleasure from endorphins released during exercise, which would be a similarity with masochism. Furthermore, exercise may involve an altered state of mind, like masochism.
- Being Bruce
For this point, we do have a name: self-defeating behavior. There may be many motives for self-defeating behavior, such as insecurity, negative self-concept, or desire to be right about beliefs that limit oneself. Although these factors may coexist with masochism in some people, there is no reason to believe that the link is necessary or that they are part of masochism. There is also currently know evidence that self-defeating behavior is linked to certain factors in masochism, such as arousal of the sympathetic nervous system or release of endorphins.
As for masochism itself, it's misleading to describe it as "deriving pleasure from one's own pain." Sensations that non-masochists might experience as pain (or masochists themselves when not aroused), masochists might not experience as pain, but rather as pleasure or stimulation. In The Social Dimension of Sex, Roy Baumester suggests that masochism involves temporary escape from the self (which to me, is plausible as a factor in masochism, but not as a complete explanation). This would be a similarity with exercise, videogames, and perhaps horror movies. However, the particular self-escaping mental state would be different: the flow state) of exercise and videogames is not the same state as subspace. Escaping oneself is different from defeating oneself, which requires a self to defeat.
In Phil's supposedly masochistic pursuits, there are actually a bunch of completely different factors:
Something else to emphasize about masochism is the sexual element, particularly the link to sexual submission (though submissiveness and masochism are not the same thing). In my view, there is something fundamentally different about the psychology of masochists from typical "vanilla" people, and perhaps a biological difference also; that's why I like the description of BDSM interests as a different sexual orientation, or set of sexual orientations. It's problematic to take the psychology of this taxon of people, and generalize from it to the psychological traits of the general population.
Most of Phil's items, including sexual masochism, have some similarities with all other items, and fundamental differences from all the other items. Not all these phenomena are accurately described as deriving pleasure from one's pain, and they can't be fit into the term masochism; doing so will lead to more analytical confusion than clarity.
and, for sadism, "deriving pleasure from other people's pain")? The latter thing, especially, seems to me to be just about the worst thing in the world, and it would be a great tragedy if, out of an overzealous desire to avoid bigotry, we lost the ability to criticize and be emotionally resolved against it.
First, I should say that my objections to Phil's post are not on the grounds of bigotry. Second, I agree with you we should not lose our ability to criticize terrible things due to a politically correct avoidance of "labeling" and necessary categorizations.
Yet the need to morally condemn something shouldn't make us careless about how we categorize it. Like masochism, "sadism" is often used in a non-rigorous way. Enjoying giving someone pain in a safe, sane, and consensual context, is different from the behavior of sexually-motivated serial killers, who do not care about consent and have genuine impulse-control problems. And giving sexually-motivated pain is different from enjoying giving pain out of hatred, experimentation, or political motivations.
In my view, the word sadism should be reserved for when there is a sexual motivation. Otherwise, describing killers and mass-murderers as "sadistic" obscures the many non-sexual motivations behind killing. Although sexually-motivated serial killers are highly cognitively accessible due to the availability heuristic, the "worst thing in the world" (at least in the sense of the body count caused) is probably not sexually motivating killing, but rather political and ideological related killing.
Followup to Stuck in the middle with Bruce:
Bruce is a description of masochistic personality disorder. Bruce's dysfunctional behavior may or may not be related to sexual masochism [safe for work], which is demonized by most people in America. Yet there are ordinary, socially-accepted behaviors that seem partly masochistic to me:
Question 1: Can you list more?
Question 2: Doubtless some of the behaviors I listed have completely different explanations, some of which might not involve masochism at all. Which do you think involve enjoying pain? Can you cluster them by causal mechanism?
Question 3: When we find ourselves acting masochistically, should we try to "correct" it? Or is it part of a healthy human's nature? If so, what's the evolutionary-psych explanation? (I was surprised not to find any evo-psych explanations for masochism on the web; or even any general theory of masochism that tried to unite two different behaviors. All I found were the ideas that sexual masochism is caused by bad childhood models of love, and that masochistic personality is caused by other, unspecified bad experiences. No suggestion that masochism is part of our normal pleasure mechanism.)
Some hypotheses:
My guess is that, if it's a side-effect (e.g., 3) or a non-causal association (4), it's okay to eliminate masochism. Otherwise, that could be risky.
These all lead up to Question 4, which is a fun-theory question: Would purging ourselves of masochism make life less fun?
ADDED: Question 5: Can we train ourselves not to be Bruce without damaging our enjoyment of these other things?