DeVliegendeHollander comments on Welcome to Less Wrong! (7th thread, December 2014) - LessWrong

16 Post author: Gondolinian 15 December 2014 02:57AM

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Comment author: [deleted] 18 June 2015 09:11:54AM 5 points [-]

Hi!

Victorian social peculiarities

I just want to say I found Stefan Zweig's The World Of Yesterday really insightful about that. I used to think that kind of prudishness came from religion. According to Zweig, it was actually almost the opposite: it came from Enlightenment values, as in, trying really really hard to always act rationally (not 100% in our sense, but in the sense of: deliberately, thoughtfully, impassionately) and considered sexual instincts a far too dangerous, uncontrollable, passionate, "irrational" force, that is where it came from. Which suggests that Freud was the last Victorian, so to speak.

Comment author: VivienneMarks 20 June 2015 03:44:52PM 4 points [-]

Hi back!

Actually, interestingly, some Victorian prudishness was encouraged by Victorian feminists, weirdly enough. Old-timey sexism said that women were too lustful and oozed temptation, hence why they should be excluded from the cool-headed realms of men (Arthurian legend is FULL of this shit, especially if Sir Gallahad is involved). Victorian feminists actually encouraged the view of women as quasi-asexual, to show that no, having women in your university was not akin to inviting a gang of succubi to turn the school into an orgy pit (this was also useful, as back then, there were questions on the morality of women). A lot of modern sexism actually has its roots not in anything ancient, but in a weird backlash of Victoriana.

Comment author: Lumifer 20 June 2015 03:53:27PM *  2 points [-]

having women in your university was not akin to inviting a gang of succubi to turn the school into an orgy pit

LOL. To quote Nobel Laureate Tom Hunt as of a couple of weeks ago:

Let me tell you about my trouble with girls … three things happen when they are in the lab … You fall in love with them, they fall in love with you and when you criticise them, they cry.

Comment author: Romashka 24 June 2015 02:57:13PM 2 points [-]

One therefore wonders at man/man, woman/man and woman/woman troubles, which statistically should account for the majority of academic, er, troubles.

Comment author: Jiro 25 June 2015 02:19:27PM 1 point [-]

He's asserting that most troubles between men and women fall into a particular category. It might be that man/man troubles rarely fall into that category, and because most of that category is missing, are less numerous overall.

Comment author: Romashka 25 June 2015 05:10:24PM 5 points [-]

Well... Having once been infatuated with my supervisor and more than once reduced by him to tears even when my infatuation wore off, I can say this:

It's not people falling in love with people that really reduces group output. Being in love I worked like I would never do again.

It's people growing disappointed with people/goals, or having an actual life (my colleague quit her PhD when her husband lost his job, + they had a kid), or - God forbid! - competing for money. Now that's what I would call trouble.

Comment author: Creutzer 02 July 2015 09:10:43AM 0 points [-]

Very good point! It's a ubiquitous stereotype, but it's not a priori clear to me that workplace romance leads to a net decrease in productivity, and I haven't seen real evidence for it. Google Scholar yielded nothing, it either ignores the search word "productivity" or just yields papers that report the cliché.

Comment author: CellBioGuy 20 June 2015 04:10:44PM *  4 points [-]

I found that particular piece of stupidity particularly amusing since my field is upwards of 55 percent female (at my level - the old guard of people who have been in it since the 60s or 70s is more male) and I have worked in labs where I was the only man.

Comment author: Sarunas 29 June 2015 05:21:11PM 3 points [-]
Comment author: VivienneMarks 20 June 2015 06:40:04PM 0 points [-]

Uggghhhh.... that guy. I may not be a scientist, but I saw red when I read that.

Comment author: Epictetus 20 June 2015 06:52:08PM 1 point [-]

Actually, interestingly, some Victorian prudishness was encouraged by Victorian feminists, weirdly enough.

Feminists of that era were practically moral guardians. In the USA, they closely allied with temperance movements and managed to secure the double victory of securing women's right to vote and prohibiting alcohol.

Old-timey sexism said that women were too lustful and oozed temptation, hence why they should be excluded from the cool-headed realms of men

I can't track the reference right now, but I recall reading a transcript of a Parliamentary debate where they decided not to extend anti-homosexuality legislation to women on the grounds that women couldn't help themselves.