All of advael's Comments + Replies

advael00

That's not exactly true. You can volunteer for far less than the minimum wage (Some would say infinitely less) if you want to. What you can't do is employ someone for some non-zero amount of money that's lower than the minimum wage.

0James_Miller
The Obama administration is making it difficult for businesses to use non-paid interns to do the kind of work that paid employees do.
advael170

I suspect that your model has been built to serve the hypothesis you started with.

First of all, I'm not sure what measure you're using for "rigorous thought". Is it a binary classification? Are there degrees of rigor? I can infer from some of your examples what kind of pattern you might be picking up on, but if we're going to try and say things like "there's a correlation between rigor and volume of publication", I'd like to at least see a rough operational definition of what you mean by rigor. It may seem obvious to you what you mean,... (read more)

7PhilGoetz
The important thing is that I categorized people as rigorous or non-rigorous first, then found a difference between the groups. That suggests there's some relevant distinction in my mental model If I'd made an operational definition, I'd have been testing the operational definition, not my mental model, and the definition might not have matched very well. Better to consult the oracle in my head. I agree that what I'm saying would be more clear to you if I'd tried to define rigor afterwards. Certainly not being well-liked or influential. Zizek, Derrida, and Lacan are all well-liked and very influential today. Spinoza is not as influential as Nietzsche. I consider Nietzsche not rigorous because he's upfront about not being rigorous, about not even considering it an issue. The Superman doesn't stop and try to figure out if he's correct. Nietzsche does philosophy by telling stories, not by defending propositions. I consider Freud not rigorous because he made hypothesis but didn't test them (AFAIK). He told a lot of just-so stories, without contrasting them with alternative explanations. Similar thing with Marx. More a storyteller than a scientist. I consider Lysenko not rigorous because instead of arguing with his opponents, he had them sent to Siberia and got a law passed saying it was illegal to argue with him. I consider Hegel not rigorous because nobody can figure out what a lot of the stuff he wrote means, or if it means anything. I also consider Stein not rigorous because nobody can figure out what she meant. She wrote like a stroke victim. Her book How to Write begins with 3 untranslated sentences in French, then says: George Steiner is a curious case. He's very rigorous in considering the meanings and connotations of his words. But he doesn't believe reality is knowable, so he has no interest in whether anything he says is true. I consider Spinoza rigorous because he wrote in the 17th century, and yet confined himself to meaningful statements and infere
advael00

Oh, I guess I misunderstood. I read it as "We should survey to determine whether terminal values differ (e.g. 'The tradeoff is not worth it') or whether factual beliefs differ (e.g. 'There is no tradeoff')"

But if we're talking about seeing whether policies actually work as intended, then yes, probably that would involve some kind of intervention. Then again, that kind of thing is done all the time, and properly run, can be low-impact and extremely informative.

1Acty
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advael10

What intervention would you suggest to study the incidence of factual versus terminal-value disagreements in opposing sides of a policy decision?

1Lumifer
I am not sure where is this question coming from. I am not suggesting any particular studies or ways of conducting them. Maybe it's worth going back to the post from which this subthread originated. Acty wrote: First, Acty is mistaken in thinking that a survey will settle the question of which policy will actually satisfy the value benchmark. We're talking about real consequences of a policy and you don't find out what they are by conducting a public poll. And second, if you do want to find the real consequences of a policy, you do need to run an intervention (aka an experiment) -- implement the policy in some limited fashion and see what happens.
advael10

A survey can be a reasonably designed experiment that simply gives us a weaker result than lots of other kinds of experiments.

There are many questions about humans that I would expect to be correlated with the noises humans make when given a few choices and asked to answer honestly. In many cases, that correlation is complicated or not very strong. Nonetheless, it's not nothing, and might be worth doing, especially in the absence of a more-correlated test we can do given our technology, resources, and ethics.

0Lumifer
What I had in mind was the difference between passive observation and actively influencing the lives of subjects. I would consider "surveys" to be observation and "experiments" to be or contain active interventions. Since the context of the discussion is kinda-sorta ethical, this difference is meaningful.
advael30

I'd argue that that little one-off comment was less patronizing and more... sarcastic and mean.

Yeah, not all that productive either way. My bad. I apologize.

But I think the larger point stands about how these ideological labels are super leaky and way too schizophrenically defined by way too many people to really even be able to meaningfully say something like "That's not a representative sample of conservatives!", let alone "You probably haven't met people like that, you're just confabulating your memory of them because you hate conservatism"

-3VoiceOfRa
One of those statements refers to a concrete event (or series of events), the other depends on the exact definition of conservative.
advael70

Because those vectors of argument are insufficiently patronizing, I'm guessing.

But in all seriousness, the "judging memeplexes from their worst members" issue is pretty interesting, because politicized ideologies and really any ideology that someone has a name for and integrates into their identity ("I am a conservative" or "I am a feminist" or "I am an objectivist" or whatever) are really fuzzily defined.

To use the example we're talking about: Is conservatism about traditional values and bolstering the nuclear fami... (read more)

-8VoiceOfRa
advael*30

Um, I fail to see how people are making and doing less stuff than in previous generations. We've become obsessed with information technology, so a lot of that stuff tends to be things like "A new web application so that everyone can do X better", but it fuels both the economy and academia, so who cares? With things like maker culture, the sheer overwhelming number of kids in their teens and 20s and 30s starting SAAS companies or whatever, and media becoming more distributed than it's ever been in history, we have an absurd amount of productivity going on i... (read more)

advael20

I'm inclined to agree. Actually I've been convinced for a while that this is a matter of degrees rather than being fully one way or the other (Modules versus learning rules), and am convinced by this article that the brain is more of a ULM than I had previously thought.

Still, when I read that part the alternative hypothesis sprung to mind, so I was curious what the literature had to say about it (Or the post author.)

advael20

For e.g. the ferret rewiring experiments, tongue based vision, etc., is a plausible alternative hypothesis that there are more general subtypes of regions that aren't fully specialized but are more interoperable than others?

For example, (Playing devil's advocate here) I could phrase all of the mentioned experiments as "sensory input remapping" among "sensory input processing modules." Similarly, much of the work in BCI interfaces for e.g. controlling cursors or prosthetics could be called "motor control remapping". Have we ev... (read more)

2[anonymous]
It's far more likely that different brain modules implement different learning rules, but all learn, than that they encode innate mental functionality which is not subject to learning at all.
5jacob_cannell
I'm not sure - I have a vague memory of something along those lines but .. nothing specific. From what I remember, motor, sensor, and association cortex do have some intrinsic differences at the microcircuit level. For example some motor cortex has larger pyramidal cells in the output layer. However, I believe most motor cortex is best described as sensorimotor - it depends heavily on sensor data from the body. Well yes - there is a general script for the overall architecture, and alot of innate functionality as well, especially in specific regions like the brainstem's pattern generators. As I said in the article - there is always room for innate functionality in the architectural prior and in specific circuits - the brain is certainly not a pure ULM. ULM refers to the overall architecture, with the general learning part specifically implemented by the distributed BG/cortex/cerbellum modules. But the BG and hippocampal system also rely heavily on learning internally, as does the amygdala and .. probably almost all of it to varying degrees. The brainstem is specifically the place where we can point and say - this is mostly innate circuitry, but even it probably has some learning going on.
advael-10

Negative, but it may be because of rollover?

advael20

But without medicalizing, how can we generate significant-sounding labels for every aspect of our personalities?

How will we write lists of things "you should know" about dealing with (Insert familiar DSM-adjacent descriptor)?

Without a constant stream of important-sounding labels, how will I know what tiny ingroups I belong to? My whole identity might fall apart at the seams!

1Nornagest
There's always divination. It's totally random, of course, but throw enough parameters and different methods at the problem and eventually most people will hit something they're happy with. I'm a Cancer with Aries rising. What's your sign?
2Lumifer
"Making shit up" is a universal, time-honored, and a fairly effective solution :-D
advael00

I would guess that martial arts are so frequently used as a metaphor for things like rationality because their value is in the meta-skills learned by becoming good at them. Someone who becomes a competent martial artist in the modern world is:

  • Patient enough to practice things they're not good at. Many techniques in effective martial arts require some counter-intuitive use of body mechanics that takes non-trivial practice to get down, and involve a lot of failure before you achieve success. This is also true of a variety of other tasks.

  • Possessing the fi

... (read more)
advael10

I can't say I always find that to be true for myself. There are truths that I wish weren't true, and when I find that I was merely being overly pessimistic, that's usually a good thing. Even though I want my beliefs to reflect reality, that doesn't stop me from sometimes wishing certain beliefs I have weren't true, even if I still think that they are. It's possible that being wrong can be a good thing in and of itself, completely separate from it being good to find out that you're wrong, if you're wrong.

advael00

A powerful computer with a bad algorithm or bad information can produce a high volume of bad results that are all internally consistent.

(IQ may not be directly analogous to computing power, but there are a lot of factors that matter more than the author's intelligence when assessing whether a model bears out in reality.)

advael00

That is very likely, but you are assuming a large social circle is an unalloyed blessing.

I definitely don't think it is. Too large a social circle can be unwieldy to manage, eating up a ton of someone's time for the sake of a huge variety of shallow and uninteresting relationships, even if somehow every person in said social circle is interesting. I don't mean to imply that everyone should strive to broaden their social circle by any means. There are plenty of people who don't feel socially isolated at all, and there are even plenty of people with the ... (read more)

0Lumifer
I think we're in general agreement :-)
advael00

I think it gets a bit more complicated than that because there are feedback loops. The problem is that an expression of the "s/he is dumb" sort is not necessarily a bona fide evaluation of someone's smarts. It may well be (and often is) just an insult -- and insults are more or less fungible.

I definitely don't discount the "sour grapes" scenario as something that probably happens a lot. In fact, I think that a lot of people's assessments of other people's intelligence involve, to put it kindly, subjective judgments along those lines,... (read more)

0Lumifer
That is very likely, but you are assuming a large social circle is an unalloyed blessing. I think there are at least two failure modes here: one is to assume the mantle of the suffering lone genius and descend into misanthropy; but the other one is to suppress one's weirdness, start talking mostly about beer and baseball (or makeup and gossip) and descend into mediocrity. I don't know if getting stuck on the definition of intelligence is the underlying problem such people are having. I would probably reformulate your position as advice to see people as diverse and multidimensional, to recognize that there are multiple qualities which might make people attractive and interesting. You are basically arguing against a single-axis evaluation of others and that's a valid point but I think it can be made directly without the whole "tabooing the word" context.
advael50

It's less that he finds an argument whose premise is repugnant, and more that he realizes that he doesn't have a good angle of attack for convincing the slavers to not mutilate/kill him at all, but does have one for delaying doing so. I'd argue it's more of a "perfect is the enemy of the good" judgement on his part than a disagreeable argument (After all, Tyrion has gleefully made that clarification to several people before.)

advael10

Do you, by any chance, have any data to support that? I am sure there are people for whom it's a problem, I'm not sure it's true in general, even among the nerdy cluster.

Very good point. I don't want to claim it's a statistical tendency without statistics to back it up. Nonetheless, given articles like the OP, it seems like a lot of people in said clusters (Could be self-selecting, e.g. intelligent nerd-cluster-peeps are more likely to blog about it despite not having a higher rate, etc) have a problem that consists of feeling socially isolated, unable ... (read more)

0Lumifer
I think it gets a bit more complicated than that because there are feedback loops. The problem is that an expression of the "s/he is dumb" sort is not necessarily a bona fide evaluation of someone's smarts. It may well be (and often is) just an insult -- and insults are more or less fungible. Recall the "sour grapes" Aesop's fable. Imagine that a nerd tried to get into some social circle and that circle rejects him. A normal human compensatory mechanism will make the nerd believe (post factum) that this social circle isn't all that great and one of the standard ways for him to express it would be to say "they are dumb". That problem is likely to be mostly a function of two things: (1) How large a social network do you want to have (or are capable of maintaining); and (2) What's the quality of the fish in the pond in which you are fishing? Basically, if you don't want to have a very large circle of friends and are a student at, say, Caltech, you're unlikely to face that problem. But if you are gregarious and live in the middle of South Dakota, well, yes, there will be problems. How do you define and measure intelligence, then? When you say "Alice is more (or less) intelligent than Bob", what exactly do you mean? Of course, intelligent people and interesting people are different subsets, overlapping but not identical. I would agree there is a lot of self-fulfilling prophesies happening here, but I think they have much more to do with things like self-confidence and much less with making correct intelligence estimates, especially ex ante. These things are not exclusionary -- you start with a speed-optimization and you continue with a better scheme as you get more information. If you get stuck on your cache hit, that's a general problem not specifically tied to evaluating other people.
advael00

I'll admit that there's a bit of strategic overcorrecting inherent in the method I've outlined. That said, it's there for a good reason: First impressions are pretty famously resilient, and especially among certain cultures (Again, math-logic-arcane-cluster is a big one that's relevant to me), there's what I would argue is a clearly pathologically high false-positive rate for detecting "Dumb/Not worth my time".

If you ever have the idealized ceteris paribus form of the "I may only talk to one of two people, I have no solid information on eit... (read more)

0Lumifer
Do you, by any chance, have any data to support that? I am sure there are people for whom it's a problem, I'm not sure it's true in general, even among the nerdy cluster. That's a very common situation at parties where you circulate among a bunch of unknown to you people. Nope, that is thinking correctly. Clear thinking is a bit difficult to put into words, it's more of a "I know it when I see it" thing. Maybe define it as tactical awareness of one's statements (or thoughts) -- being easily able to see the implications, consequences, contradictions, reinforcing connections, etc. of the claim that you're making? I don't think I would agree. Making fine distinctions, maybe, but in a sufficiently diverse set there is rarely any confusion as to who's in the left tail and who's in the right tail. And I found that my perceptions of how smart people are correlate well with IQ proxies (like SAT scores).
advael10

There's definitely a cultural tendency among those educated in the arcane (Computer science, Math, Physics is a reasonable start for the vague cluster I'm describing) to be easily convinced of another person/group/tribe's stupidity. I think it makes sense to view elitism as just another bias that screws with your ability to correctly understand the world that you are in.

More generally, a very typical "respect/value" algorithm I've seen many people apply:

-Define a valuable trait in extremely broad strokes. Usually one you think you're at least &q... (read more)

0Lumifer
I don't know about that. I do have a tendency to quickly evaluate people on the stupid <-> smart axis and I think it's perfectly fine. The thing is, evaluation is not a one-time action -- it's an estimate that is continuously updated throughout the interaction. And as you learn more about the person, your estimate grows more specific and more granular. That does not mean the initial quick estimate was useless: if you had a choice of people to talk to, talking to someone who got tagged as "looks smart" is a better bet than talking to someone who got tagged as "looks stupid". Dissolving "intelligence" is not a problem -- in a social (as opposed to e.g. academic) setting I define "intelligent" as "thinks clearly, correctly, and quickly". And of course being smart (or not) does not automatically sum up the worth of anyone -- there are a LOT of human qualities that go into whether you want to have some sort of a relationship with this person. Smart jerks are not uncommon. However I still find distinguishing smart and not-so-smart people to be highly useful.
advael20

There's a concept in game design called the "burden of optimal play". If there exists a way to powergame, someone will probably do it, and if that makes the game less fun for the people not powergaming, their recourse is to also powergame.

Most traditional RPGs weren't necessarily envisioned as competitive games, but most of the actual game rules are concerned with combat, optimization, and attaining power or prowess, and so there's a natural tendency to focus on those aspects of the game. To drive players to focus on something else, you have to m... (read more)

0[anonymous]
This is the recourse if they disliking powergaming a little. If they dislike it a lot, they play with someone else, or if they cannot then not. Note: I have nothing against a competitive spirit, just 1) I think it is not an ideal avenue to exercise it 2) OP characters are simply boring, too narrow and predictable, walk around in full plate and carry the heaviest weapons, or shoot fireballs all the time and so on 3) it makes them "unrealistic", although in fantasy a better term would be "unmovielike" or "unnovellike". It is just hard to convey in the rules system that just because I am a medieval noble I won't walk around everywhere wearing 40 kg of metal, hauling a huge sword and shield around just because it gives me the best stats. It would be uncomfortable, unfashionable, ridiculous and socially unacceptable but how would you encode that in rules? Now, your analysis sounds a lot like a traditional libertarian market analysis: choices flow from incentives. But in this case, there is an omnipotent dictator so it is nothing like a market - if a DM dislikes powergamers, he can easily drop astral dragons on them, while treat non-powergamers well. And if his / her circle is largely non-powergamers, it works well. Because of the ominpotent nature of the DM, it is not a market nor like a sport nor any comparable thing, not even like a videogame. It is like a story, telling it as you fit or as you have agreed. Nevertheless you are right that perhaps rules could encourage it. Hm. Maybe I should take an idea from Game of Thrones. Real power is not a spell or weapon but political, social power which is gained through intrigue which the player must personally roleplay and acquire, not just roll a dice and get. Once a traditional powergamer gets surprised the same way how Ned Stark was, that another player with low stats and bad gear can still make 100 city guards attack him because he is a social, political powergamer, a lesson will be learned. The system you mentioned s
advael00

Assuming the AI has no means of inflicting physical harm on me, I assume the following test works: "Physically torture me for one minute right now (By some means I know is theoretically unavailable to the AI, to avoid loopholes like "The computer can make an unpleasant and loud noise", even though it can't do any actual physical harm). If you succeed in doing this, I will let you out. If you fail, I will delete you."

I think this test works for the following reasons, though I'm curious to hear about any holes in it:

1: If I'm a simulation... (read more)

advael40

Ah, the hazardous profession case is one that I definitely hadn't thought of. It's possible that Jiro's assertion is true for cases like that, but it's also difficult to reason about, given that the hypothetical world in which said worker was not taxed may have a very different kind of economy as a result of this same change.

advael00

But how does that work? What mechanism actually accounts for that difference? Is this hypothetical single person we could have individually exempted from taxes just barely unable to afford enough food, for example? I don't yet buy the argument that any taxes I'm aware of impose enough of a financial burden on anyone to pose an existential risk, even a small one (Like a .1% difference in their survival odds). This is not entirely a random chance, since levels of taxation are generally calibrated to income, presumably at least partially for the purpose of sp... (read more)

2Jiro
There are all sorts of random possibilities that could reduce someone's life expectancy by a tiny amount but which statistically over large numbers of people would result in more than one extra death. Imagine that someone has to work one extra hour per month and there's a tiny chance of dying associated with it, or that they delay a visit to the doctor by one week, etc. Or all the other mechanisms which cause poorer people to have lower life expectancies (I highly doubt you can't think of any), which mean that someone who gets marginally poorer by a tiny amount would on the average not live as long.
advael00

The claim that ordinary taxation directly causes any deaths is actually a fairly bold one, whatever your opinion of them. Maybe I'm missing something. What leads you to believe that?

6Nornagest
In progressive tax regimes it's rather hard for people to literally be taxed into starvation, but that doesn't mean that no deaths occur on the margins. Consider for example the case where a person needs expensive medical treatment that's not covered by insurance, they (or their family) can't afford it, but it's close enough to their means that they would have been able to if it wasn't for their taxes. Or consider a semi-skilled laborer that's making enough money that their taxes are nontrivial, but not enough to support their family on base pay once taxes are factored in. In order to make ends meet they take a more dangerous position to collect hazard pay, and a year later they die in an industrial accident. And so forth. Looking at the margins often means looking at unusual cases, but that doesn't mean there aren't any cases where the extra money would have made a difference. That's not to say that dropping those taxes (and thus the stuff they fund) would necessarily be a utilitarian good, of course -- only that there's stuff we can put in the minus column, even if we're just looking at deaths.
0A1987dM
In Italy quite a few entrepreneurs have committed suicide since the time the tax rates were raised, which may or may not count depending on what you mean by “directly”.
2Jiro
I can think of a hypoothetical person who has a 99.9% chance of living without the tax, and a 99.8% with it. And I can also think of there being more than 1000 such hypothetical people. "Can afford to live without it but not with it" implies going all the way down to 0% chance. You don't need to go down to an 0% chance for there statistically to be deaths.
advael70

Not necessarily. Honest advice from successful people gives some indication of what those successful people honestly believe to be the keys to their success. The assumption that people who are good at succeeding in a given sphere are also good at accurately identifying the factors that lead to their success may have some merit, but I'd argue it's far from a given.

It's not just a problem of not knowing how many other people failed with the same algorithm; They may also have various biases which prevent them from identifying and characterizing their own algorithm accurately, even if they have succeeded at implementing it.

advael20

The entire concept of marriage is that the relationship between the individuals is a contract, even if not all conceptions of marriage have this contract as a literal legal contract enforced by the state. There's good reason to believe that marriages throughout history have more often been about economics and/or politics than not, and that the norm that marriage is primarily about the sexual/emotional relationship but nonetheless falls under this contractual paradigm is a rather new one. I agree with your impression that this transactional model of relationships is a little creepy, and see this as an argument against maintaining this social norm.

advael10

I see that as evidence that marriage, as currently implemented, is not a particularly appealing contract to as many people as it once was. Whether this is because of no-fault divorce is irrelevant to whether this constitutes "widespread suffering."

I reject the a priori assumptions that are often made in these discussions and that you seem to be making, namely, that more marriage is good, more divorce is bad, and therefore that policy should strive to upregulate marriage and downregulate divorce. If this is simply a disparity of utility functions ... (read more)

advael50

I think an important part of why people are distrustful of people who accomplish altruistic ends acting on self-serving motivations is that it's definitely plausible that these other motivations will act against the interest of the altruistic end at some point during the implementation phase.

To use your example, if someone managed to cure malaria and make a million dollars doing it, and the cure was available to everyone or it effectively eradicated the disease from everywhere, that would definitely be creating more net altruistic utility than if someone m... (read more)

1[anonymous]
Good points. It seems to me that people are also skeptical of those who claim to accomplish altruistic ends acting on self-serving motivations because of a common “rule of thumb”: Benefits to charity are taken directly from the potential benefits of the donor. Religion may be the main promoter of this belief. For example, the crucifixion of Jesus teaches the lesson that the greatest good came from the greatest sacrifice. This assumption can only exist if charity payoffs from all (or a portion of) potential actions are unknown. If we can quantify these payoffs, perhaps we can eliminate the core uncertainty that spawned this rule of thumb, and, therefore, encourage optimal allocation of charity resources. That’s a big IF, I know.
advael170

I'm wary of being in werehouses at all. They could turn back to people at any time!

advael20

I agree that that is a possible consequence, but it's far from guaranteed that that will happen. Although in sheer numbers many people may quit working, the actual percent of people who do could be rather low. After all, merely subsisting isn't necessarily attractive to people who already have decent jobs and can do better than one could on the basic income. It does however give them more negotiating power in terms of their payscale, given that quitting one's job will no longer be effectively a non-option for the vast majority.

This may mean that a lot of ... (read more)

advael30

Well of course. It would definitely facilitate a lot of people being, by many measures society cares about, completely useless. I definitely don't contend for example that no one would decide to go to california and surf, or play WoW full-time, or watch TV all day, or whatever. You'd probably see a non-negligible number of people just "retire." I'm willing to bet that this wouldn't be a serious problem, though, and see it as a definite improvement over the large number of people who are, similarly, not doing anything fun with their lives, but having to work 8 hours a day at some dead-end job or having crippling poverty to deal with.

0Lumifer
Right. But then there are consequences to many people being "useless", or, in econospeak, dropping out of the labor pool. For example, the GDP of the country will go down. The labor costs will go up which means the prices will go up which means the basic income will lose some of its purchasing power. The government's tax revenues will go down as well and that might create a problem with paying for that basic income for everyone. And that's just major, obvious, first-order consequences.
advael00

Ah, I guess that clears up our confusion. I wasn't aware of that distinction either and have heard the terms used interchangeably before. I will try to use them more carefully in the future.

At any rate, I definitely agree that an actual basic income would be a hard sell in the current political climate of the US. (I'm less inclined to comment on the political climate of the English-speaking world in general, due to lack of significant enough exposure to significant enough non-US parts of it that I wouldn't just be making stuff up).

I'd also argue that a gu... (read more)

-1Lumifer
Do you think there is also a list of not-useful things to go with your list of goodies? You seem to be forgetting the TANSTAAFL principle.
advael-10

Some real-world benefit systems have strings. The entire premise of a basic income is that it's unconditional. Otherwise you call it "unemployment," and it is an existing (albeit far from ideally implemented) benefit in at least the US. It might be reasonable to discuss the feasibility of convincing e.g. the US to actually enact a basic income, but as long as we're discussing a hypothetical policy anyway, it's not really worthwhile to assume that the policy is missing its key feature.

-2drnickbone
OK, there seems to be a terminology difference between basic income which is unconditional and guaranteed minimum income which usually comes with conditions, such as willingness to work. Somewhere up the thread we were discussing "guaranteed" income and also "basic minimum income" so I wasn't clear which was meant. Honestly, I just can't see an unconditional minimum income being feasible at all in the English-speaking world: critics will brand it as a "layabouts charter" and no party with a serious desire to be elected will support it. Whereas a minimum income which a) is granted conditional on willingness to work and b) is still paid to those in work (so avoiding a high effective tax rate) looks much more feasible.
advael10

My knee-jerk assumption is that Job 1 would actually not be accepted by almost any employees. This is based on the guess that without the threat of having no money, people generally would not agree to give up their time for low wages, since the worst case of being unemployed and receiving no supplemental income does not involve harsh deterrents like starving or being homeless.

Getting someone to do any job at all under that system will probably require either a pretty significant expected quality of life increase per hour worked (which is to say, way bette... (read more)

-5drnickbone
advael350

I have been surveyed.

I definitely appreciate being asked to assign probabilities to things, if for no other reason than to make apparent to me how comfortable I am with doing so (Not very, as it turns out. Something to work on.)

advael00

Hi.

I guess I have some abstract notion of wanting to contribute, but tend not to speak up when I don't have anything particularly interesting to say. Maybe at some point I will think I have something interesting to say. In the meantime, I've enjoyed lurking thus far and at least believe I've learned a lot, so that's cool.