I'm two years late to the discussion, but I think I can clear this up. The idea is that a person without qualia might still have sensory processing that leads to the construction of percepts which can inform our actions, but without any consciousness of sensation. There is also a distinction between sensory data and sensation. Consider this scenario:
I am looking at a red square on a white wall. The light from some light source reflects off the wall and enters my eye, where it activates cone and rod cells. This is sensory data, but it is not sensation, in t...
A messy onset featuring transient beating caused by a piano key being out of tune with itself is usually insignificant, but it is not necessarily insignificant if it occurs during a mellow, legato passage, where that particular note plays an especially central role. It can ruin the phrase completely. Still only in the ears of skilled musicians, but if you say this is unimportant because skilled musicians are vastly outnumbered by the general population, then you wind up creating a strong disincentive from advancing in skill beyond a certain point, and you ...
It is part Ayn Rand, part Curtis Yarvin. Ultimately it all comes from Thomas Carlyle anyway.
And there is no need to limit yourself to potential obligations. Unless you have an exceedingly blessed life, then there should be no shortage of friends and loved ones in need of help.
That does not even come close to cancelling out the reduced ability to get a detailed view of the impact, let alone the much less honest motivations behind such giving.
And lives are not of equal value. Even if you think they have equal innate value, surely you can recognise that a comparatively shorter third-world life with worse prospects for intellectual and artistic development and greater likelihood of abject poverty is much less valuable (even if only due to circumstances) than the lives of people you are surrounded with, and surely you will als...
Imagine an alternate version of the Effective Altruism movement, whose early influences came from socialist intellectual communities such as the Fabian Society, as opposed to the rationalist diaspora.
That's a lot closer to the truth than you might think. There are plenty of lines going from the Fabian society (and from Trotsky, for that matter) into the rationalist diaspora. On the other hand, there is very little influence from eg. Henry Regnery or Oswald Spengler.
“A real charter city hasn’t been tried!” I reply.
Lee Kuan Yew's Singapore is close enou...
The issue at hand is not whether the "logic" was valid (incidentally, you are disputing the logical validity of an informal insinuation whose implication appears to be factually true, despite the hinted connection — that Scott's views on HBD were influenced by Murray's works — being merely probable)
The issues at hand are:
1. whether it is a justified "weapon" to use in a conflict of this sort
2. whether the deed is itself immoral beyond what is implied by "minor sin"
That is an unrealistic and thoroughly unworkable expectation.
World models are pre-conscious. We may be conscious of verbalised predictions that follow from our world models, and various cognitive processes that involve visualisation (in the form of imagery, inner monologue, etc.), since these give rise to qualia. We do not however possess direct awareness of the actual gear-level structures of our world models, but must get at these through (often difficult) inference.
When learning about any sufficiently complex phenomenon, such as pretty much any aspect o...
Trouble is that even checking the steelman with the other person does not avoid the failure modes I am talking about. In fact, some moments ago, I made slight changes to the post to include a bit where the interlocutor presents a proposed steelman and you reject it. I included this because many redditors objected that this is by definition part of steelmanning (though none of the cited definitions actually included this criterion), and so I wanted to show that it makes no difference at all to my argument whether the interlocutor asks for confirmation of th...
Indeed, that was the purpose of steelmanning in its original form, as it was pioneered on Slate Star Codex.
Interestingly, when I posted it on r/slatestarcodex, a lot of people started basically screaming at me that I am strawmanning the concept of steelmanning, because a steelman by definition requires that the person you're steelmanning accepts the proposed steelman as accurate. Hence, your comment provides me some fresh relief and assures me that there is still a vestige left of the rationalist community I used to know.
I wrote my article mostly concernin...
No, the reasoning generalises to those fields too. The problem with those areas driving their need to have measurement of cognitive abilities is excessive bureaucratisation and lack of a sensible top-down structure with responsibilities and duties in both directions. A wise and mature person can get a solid impression of an interviewee's mental capacities from a short interview, and can even find out a lot of useful details that are not going to be covered by an IQ test. For example, mental health, maturity, and capacity to handle responsibility.
Or conside...
The measuring project is symptomatic of scientism and is part of what needs to be corrected.
That is what I meant when I said that the HBD crowd is reminiscent of utilitarian technocracy and progressive-era eugenics. The correct way of handling race politics is to take an inventory of the current situation by doing case studies and field research, and to develop a no-bullshit commonsense executive-minded attitude for how to go about improving the conditions of racial minorities from where they're currently at.
Obviously, more policing is needed, so as to fin...
They are not doing it in order to troll their political opponents. They are doing it out of scientism and loyalty to enlightenment aesthetics of reason and rationality, which just so happens to entail an extremely toxic stigma against informal reasoning about weighty matters.
The second option, trying to uncover the real origin of the conclusion, being obviously the best of the three. It is also most in-line with canonical works like Is That Your True Rejection?
But it belongs to the older paradigm of rationalist thinking; the one that sought to examine motivated cognition and discover the underlying emotional drives (ideally with delicate sensitivty), whereas the new paradigm merely stigmatizes motivated cognition and inadvertently imposes a cultural standard of performativity, in which we are all supposed to pretend that our t...
And, again, it is not "false pretenses" to engage in a discussion with more than one goal in mind and not explicitly lay out all one's goals in advance.
It saddens me that LessWrong has reached such a state that it is now a widespread behaviour to straw man the hell out of someone's position and then double down when called on it.
...What I think is both rude and counterproductive is focusing on what sort of person the other person is, as opposed to what they have done and are doing. In this particular thread the rot begins with "thus flattering your narcissism
...In much the same way, saying that 'Ukraine would have quickly surrendered or suffered a quick defeat' is only correct in counterfactual realities. You could of course argue that if the West did not help Ukraine structure it's military prior to the invasion, no help of any kind was delivered (even from Eastern Europe) during the invasion, and magically granted Putin infinite domestic popularity, the war would've ended quickly. But at that point we are living in a different reality. A reality where Russia actually had the capability for a Desert Storm esque
Saying something relevant to an ongoing discussion (which it seems clear to me tailcalled's original comment was) while also hoping it will be persuasive to someone who has disagreed with you about something else is not "false pretenses".
He specifically wanted to convince me that Blanchardians are abusive, which massively distorts his judgement with respect to commenting on the justice of Zack's actions and LW's reception of him. Tailcalled ought to at the very least have disclosed these ulterior motives from the beginning.
An additional point to note is th...
Well, maybe I'm confused about what tailcalled's "original comment" that you're complaining about was, because looking at what I thought it was I can't see anything in it that anyone could possibly expect to convince anyone that Blanchardians are abusive. Nor much that anyone could expect to convince anyone that Blanchardians are wrong, which makes me suspect even more that I've failed to identify what comment we're talking about. But the only other plausible candidate I see for the "original comment" is this one, which has even less of that sort. Or maybe...
By sacrificing that status, I lost the ability to continue engaging in those things. For instance by criticizing Bailey on his core misbehavior, he did his best to get rid of me, which lost me the ability to continue criticizing him, thus closing off that angle of behavior.
Your self-serving bias is a bias and not a rational stance of calculated actions. It sways your reasoning and the beliefs you arrive at, not your direct behaviour towards Michael Bailey.
Is that getting your position right?
No. I am not making any point about what discourse selects for. I ...
but I don't see anything manipulative or under-false-pretenses about what you're complaining about here.
He responded to me in a manner that seemed to only suggest an intention of addressing the subject matter of discussion in this post, not an intention of swaying my stance towards him in our private feud, but then in the text I quoted, he explicitly states that his purpose was to sway my stance in that private feud. That's practically the definition of false pretenses.
You're falling prey to the halo effect. You are put off by my more disagreeable manner, ...
The issue at hand is a critique of the rationalist community. A community is the product of its members.
Although, in this particular case, part of the issue is that tailcalled is having a private feud with me on the side, which he decided to bring into this comment section under false pretenses, cf. his own words:
...My actual motivation with my original comment was to try to point you at some of the areas in which Blanchardians are wrong or even abusive, since (in our other Discussion, in the emails) you were skeptical that my views are all that much dr
...In typical terms, ultra-BS is lying. (as in, you know you are wrong and speak as if you're right anyways). In my view, however, there's also an extension to that. If you are aware that you don't have knowledge on a topic and make wild assertions anyhow to support a narrative (say, if I declared that Kremlin whisperers are considering a coup against Putin) I would also be 'BS-ing'. I'm not lying in the traditional sense, as it's certainly possible I'm correct (however unlikely). But if I clearly don't have information then I can't act as if I do. Thus I'd c
Is this correct?
Sort of, but you're missing my main point, which is simply that what Vivek did is not actually dark arts, and that what you are doing is.
His arguments, as you summarised them into bullet points, are topical and in good faith. They are at worst erroneous and not an example of bullshitting. You have convinced yourself that if he were to contend with your objections, he'd resort to surface level arguments about battlefield outcomes, pressing domestic concerns, etc., which actually would fall under your category of ultra-bullshit. Ie. you did i...
...My dabbles in critical theory arose from and is almost entirely limited to my contact with Zack's associates, and from critical theorists seeming to describe pathologies that I have frequently faced from Blanchardians. As such, Blanchardianism basically screens off (in a probabilistic DAG sense) other critical theory topics for me. If critical theory says that my behavior in these topics is that of Bad Centrists, then I say "hmm then maybe those Bad Centrists were actually onto something, idk". I don't know anything about how combative Malcolm X was, nor d
Thanks for confirming my suspicions, since the precise wording must have been very embarrassing to intentionally delete without a trace, I won't pry, and I'll let bygones be bygones.
I already told you what the comment said. I deleted it not because I thought it was embarrassing, but because I thought it was irrelevant.
Is there some way for moderators or admins to identify the content of a deleted comment? If so, I give my permission for them to do so and state publicly what it contained.
...I understand it can be a bit scary and frustrating when someone much m
Yes, there was abuse before then, but it wasn't constant. It has since then become constant abuse. Do we really need to endlessly nitpick my usage of the phrase "constant abuse"?
I still think the word "constant" is sufficiently apt, but more importantly, my argument does not depend in the slightest on the aptness of that one particular word, yet here we are, idk how many comments in, still discussing it. That strikes me as merely a way to evade the point by endless nitpicknig.
The tactic consists of two prongs, both of which I have seen used in isolation in other places than LessWrong. I have not however seen both together with this switching tactic elsewhere. Non-rationalists may also dismiss arguments addressing the big picture by calling them baseless assertions or manipulative or conspiracy theories or whatever, but they will not be in the habit of prompting people to revisit underlying assumptions, and if the proponent does this of his own initiative, they might accuse him of spin and of making elaborate excuses to hold on ...
This is spot on, as is your subsequent point that the real defense is to simply be right and not let counterarguments change your mind. The fact that you are getting downvoted is a rather sad commentary on the state LessWrong has reached. What you are preaching is the twelfth rationalist virtue, which is really the culmination of all the others.
As I said, I don't know how one can consistently recognize traps like this. It seems exceedingly difficult to me, but that's what an actual defense would look like.
It is exceedingly difficult, but it can be learned. Unfortunately libertarianism (I get anarcho-capitalist vibes from you but I could be wrong) is itself captured by one of these traps, being basically a way of subverting leftism and turning it against itself. If you're curious, the Austrian school was "pure" in a sense up to and including Mises, but then Ayn Rand was heavily inspired by Mises a...
Have you given even a moment's thought to what Vivek might say in response to your objections? I get the impression that you haven't, and that you know essentially nothing about the views of the opposing side on this issue.
The three bullet points in your summary of his argument are not an example of dark arts just on account of seeming unconvincing to you. They are actual arguments that you may disagree with, and which you consider obviously stupid simply because you have no clue what response he would give to your objections, and so you blithely assume th...
See the thing is for a long time I used to think Zack's ultimate point was his original tagline, but as I kept pushing him more and more to focus on empirical research in the area instead of on arguing with rationalists, eventually he stopped me and corrected me that his true point wasn't really trans etiology anymore, it was philosophy of classification.
True point =/= ultimate point. The ultimate point is where your line of argumentation terminates, whereas the true point is simply the point you care most about in the given moment. At this point it appear...
Do you realize I can see when you've posted replies and then 'deleted them without trace' immediately afterwards? The mods can too.
For any others wondering, the deleted comment simply said "... That's what I get for engaging with a blatant troll", or something to that effect. It was because M. Y. Zuo's manipulative bs had made me forget my actual reasons for engaging, and I deleted the comment when I remembered what they were.
But it seems superfluous at this point, since any reasonable person can tell that M. Y. Zuo's behaviour is absolutely reprehen...
I can't possibly hope to convince you when you are engaging in abysmally bad faith. My purpose is to call you out, because you should not be getting away with this shit.
On another note, I did in fact "list out actual arguments", exactly as you said. I can only surmise that they didn't satisfy the "criteria of the counter-party", and for some unguessable (/s) reason, you once again will not give even the slightest indication of what you deem to be insufficient about them.
How exactly am I supposed to convince an interlocutor who will not even explain why he is unmoved by the arguments provided? Again, this is insane.
Since you seem to have completely lost track of what actually happened, I will remind you:
The thing is this tactic needs the cooperation of both participants to work. If the participant getting attacked with the catch 22 just makes a clear description of the central point, and then writes quick clear answer to each sidetracking about how they are sidetracking, it's easy to resist.
No it doesn't, it just requires that the person engaging in the tactic is sufficiently persistent to resume immediately after the victim of the tactic has defused it using the defence you recommend. The tactic will succeed if there's even the slightest failure in the v...
Because you like other LessWrongers are in the habit of being fooled by your own manipulations, such as the aforementioned weaponised confusion, and even then you have correctly identified Zack's ultimate point in your reference to this original tagline.
See the thing is for a long time I used to think Zack's ultimate point was his original tagline, but as I kept pushing him more and more to focus on empirical research in the area instead of on arguing with rationalists, eventually he stopped me and corrected me that his true point wasn't really trans etiol...
Like I said, one person's opinions regarding the supposed characteristics of another's comments simply cannot outweigh the opinions of anyone else.
Utterly irrelevant since I never asked anybody to take my opinions as outweighing their own.
But if you genuinely want to productively engage, I'll give one final chance:
Can you offer some actual proof or substantive backing, not in edited comments, for at least half of all the stuff written so far?
Again, I have already presented arguments for my case. If you do not consider them sufficiently substantive, t...
"Constant" implies some notion of uniformity, though, doesn't it? Not necessarily across critics as it could also be e.g. across time, but it seems like we should have constancy across some axis in order for it to be constant.
Yes, pretty much every time he makes a post on this topic, he is met with a barrage of abuse.
I'm not completely sure what you mean by "weaponization" of confusion.
There is this particular tactic I have seen from LessWrongers[1] and nowhere else. It consists of a catch 22:
...There is this particular tactic I have seen from LessWrongers[1] and nowhere else. It consists of a catch 22:
- if you make a simple informal point, eg. calling attention to something absurd and pointing out its absurdity, your argument will be criticised for being manipulative or consisting of baseless assertions, or perhaps your interlocutor will simply deny that you made an argument at all, and you will be called upon to formalise it more or in some other way make the argument more rigorous.
- if you make a detailed point covering enough ground to addres
I acknowledge my own comments may seem to be low quality or 'bad' in your eyes, but to post even lower quality replies is self-defeating.
I didn't. Mine at least contained actual arguments.
Those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
The text you quoted makes a specific argument that you once again chose to simply insult instead of addressing it. Again, your behaviour speaks for itself.
At this point it has become abundantly clear that you are simply a troll, so I will not bother to engage with you henceforth.
There hasn't been a coherent argument presented yet, hence why I directly pointed out the incoherency...
No, you did not, you added a fact that further corroborated the argument, as my reply showed.
Since this is the second deflection in a row, I'll give one more chance to answer the previous direct questions:
I have already directly answered the first question: no, I am not confused about the terminology. I have also answered the assumptions implicit in the question and shown why the question was irrelevant. Of course, both that one and the subsequent ...
I'm not sure "constant abuse" is accurate. Zack's interlocutors seem to vary from genuinely abusive (arguably applicable to sapphire's comment) to locally supportive to locally wrong to locally corrective, but most significantly his interlocutors seem unstructured and unproductive for the conversation.
I did not say that his critics are uniformly abusive, merely that he is being met with constant abuse. This can still be the case even if only some of his interlocutors are abusive. I think "constant abuse" is a fitting description of the experiences recounte...
You are not even pretending to address the argument at this point, you are merely insulting it and me. I think your latest reply here speaks for itself.
That incoherence you speak of is precisely what my previous comment pointed out, and it pertains to your argument rather than mine. As my previous comment explained, engaging with a post even just to call it uninteresting undermines any proclamation that you do not care about the post. If your engagement is more substantive than this, then that only further calls into question the need to shame the author for making posts that random passing readers might not care about.
Edited to add:
...The 'random passing reader' refers to all readers within a few standard d
I guess it's just not very clear to me why Michael Vassar doesn't consider them to be highly blameworthy.
It is the bad faith engagement which I deem abusive, especially given the context, not the disagreement.
Even if Zack happens to be right, the fact that people do not update about something they don't care about and which cannot be sufficiently simply explained, is not evidence of them being "fake", "corrupt", "epistemically rotten", "enemy combatants", or any other hysterical hyperbole.
The complexity you complain about is not Zack's fault. His detractors engage in endless evasiveness including God-of-the-gaps style arguments as ChristianKI pointed out, and walking back an entire LW sequence that was previously non-controversial, simply because it has become ...
I think it's also worth emphasizing that the use of the phrase "enemy combatants" was in an account of something Michael Vassar said in informal correspondence, rather than being a description I necessarily expect readers of the account to agree with (because I didn't agree with it at the time). Michael meant something very specific by the metaphor, which I explain in the next paragraph. In case my paraphrased explanation wasn't sufficient, his exact words were:
...The latter frame ["enemy combatants"] is more accurate both because criminals have rights and
See, this is an example of the bad faith engagement that lies close to the core of this controversy.
People who do not care about a post click away from it. They do not make picket signs about how much they don't care and socially shame the poster for making posts that aren't aimed at random passing readers. Whether a post is aimed at random passing readers is an abysmally poor criterion for evaluating the merits of posts in a forum that is already highly technical and full of posts for specialist audiences, and in point of fact several readers did care enough to spend hours of their time on it.
The insanity is more reasonably attributed to being met with constant abuse (which your comment is ostensibly an example of) than to his positions on epistemology or the ontology of gender. Also, Zack has already explained that he has something to protect, which is existentially threatened by his detractors. The implication of your sentiment seems to be that he should simply give up on what is precious to him and pick the winning side. This is not the standard you would be applying if you were engaging in good faith.
Hmmm... what if I require intent but the intent needs not be conscious? What makes intent specifically conscious is simply that you model yourself as having the intent; a kind of map-territory correspondence between your intent (territory) and your self-model of your intent (map). We can be conscious of our intentions, but it is not the intentions themselves that are conscious.
In fact, I consider it more dishonest for people to have dishonest intentions they are unaware of than for them to knowingly lie. Insofar as the liar is not making excuses even in hi...
I have long held the view that good deeds are as relevant to justice as bad deeds, and that the failure to reward good deeds is if anything a worse injustice than the failure to punish bad deeds. I grant that this is a slight asymmetry in the opposite direction, but I don't think this is a problem, because this kind of asymmetry discourages inaction, and I think inaction is a net negative.
But there is another way in which my conception of justice differs from your conception of symmetric justice, namely: I would never allow bad points and good points to ca... (read more)