All of ILikeLogic's Comments + Replies

Often in psychotherapy a person's goal is to resolve a conflict between the unconscious mind and the conscious mind in favor of the conscious mind. You may hear it called an irrational unconscious belief. Someone may unconsciously feel unworthy of respect and acceptance but they consciously believe that this is irrational. What is interesting is that psychotherapy can work exactly as desired if the logic of the unconscious belief can be made fully conscious. It will not happen through mere deduction however. It has to be done by consciously accepting... (read more)

Can someone tell me if I understand this correctly : He is saying that we must be clear before hand what constitutes evidence for and what constitutes evidence against and what doesn't constitute evidence either way?

Because in his examples it seems that what is being changed is what counts as evidence. It seems that no matter what transpires (in the witch trials for example) it is counted as evidence for. This is not the same as changing the hypothesis to fit the facts. The hypothesis was always 'she's a witch'. Then the evidence is interpreted as supportive of the hypothesis no matter what.

0gjm
You don't necessarily have to figure it out beforehand (though it's certainly harder to fool yourself if you do). But if X is evidence for Y then not-X has to be evidence for not-Y. And yes, one thing that's going wrong in those witch trials is that both X and not-X are being treated as evidence for Y, which can't possibly be correct. (And the way in which it's going wrong is that the prosecutor correctly observes that Y could produce X or not-X, whichever of the two actually happened to turn up, and fails to distinguish between that and showing that Y is more likely to produce that outcome than not-Y, which is what would actually make the evidence go in the claimed direction.) Did anyone say it is? I'm not seeing where.

He's a jaded cynic. He's also the most insightful and intelligent PUA writing in the blogosphere. But don't forget how cynical he is.

I find it can be really irritating to try to make any kind of point about anything with certain people. To some there is no point in talking other than to yuk it up. I guess you just have to know your audience.

SBNation.com blogs are like that. The main people write the main blog posts but anyone can post 'fanshots' (really short posts) or 'fanposts' (longer posts) and if the blog bosses think a fanpost is really good they can move it to the main section.

I like this :

A hostile environment can increase the pain, which makes the fear reaction stronger. You get 1 unit of pain from the rejection, and perhaps 10 units of pain from people who keep mocking you for weeks. So your memory associates the event with 11 units of pain, instead of 1. This alone is enough to explain why the situation is worse.

I am suggesting that it may work a lot like this but a little bit differently. The main difference is that I'm suggesting that there is something uniquely painful and harmful about, not the mocking that follows... (read more)

Have you tried it yet?

0LoganStrohl
Nope.

I agree. But what is causing the fear? By that I mean precisely how does this fear work? I'm not sure habit is the correct word. I think it's a learned emotional response that has become automatic. So can it be unlearned? My supposition is that expressing the pain from the original rejection in an environment where the full expression of that pain can run it's natural course, will extinguish the fear. The problem would be solved. This is a big difference from a habit. Its being driven by an automatic emotional response that was acquired by a pai... (read more)

1Viliam_Bur
A prediction of failure. As if the brain asks: "what is the likely result of this?" and the memory answers: "feeling bad". Yes, by creating situations which your brain can classify as belonging to the same reference class, and the result is not feeling bad. The problem is, how to design such situations, if mere memory of feeling bad yesterday can make you feel bad today. Here CBT has some strategies; for example creating so weakened variant of the situation that your brain does not put it in the same reference class, and you hopefully succeed; and then very slowly increasing the intensity, so that your brain still pattern-matches it to the previous weakened version, instead of the full version. It's an inconsistency of brain. Imagine that when some variable x = 10, you feel bad, and if x = 0 you feel good. If you ask "what happens if x = 8?", your brain will predict feeling bad, because it's closer to 10 than to 0. -- But if instead you ask "what happens if x = 1?", your brain predicts feeling good; and then you ask "and if x = 2?" etc. and when you come to "and if x = 8?", the brain will predict feeling good; especially if each step is then confirmed experimentally. And then when you come to x = 9, the memory will return: "there are multiple matches: we have good feeling for x = 8 and bad feeling for x = 10"... and then you apply some cognitive pressure and say something like: "but you know, the x = 8 data is fresh, and the x = 10 data is obsolete" and the brain gets convinced that the correct prediction is feeling good. And then you use the same trick even for x = 10, and you win. In some situations this can happen "naturally", but that depends on luck. In a specific situation your brain may say: "well, the old memory is not relevant here, because... something important has changed". Or you can be tricked into doing the task first without having time to make a negative prediction. A hostile environment can increase the pain, which makes the fear reaction stro

It just occurred to me in the other thread that he may have meant it more in the photographic sense of focusing a lens on an image until it becomes clear rather than in the conventional sense of concentrating.

The purpose is to elucidate the feeling in more detail. Our feelings become automatic and don't require conscious appraisal. Often, a clear conscious appreciation of exactly what our feelings are, doesn't exist. The feeling can be there but there may not be a conscious understanding of exactly what it is and what it is for.

There is an assumption implied by this whole post that, at least sometimes, our feelings are not appropriate to the situation. Why would I want to get rid of an emotional reaction that is entirely appropriate? If it is serving... (read more)

0ThereIsNoJustice
Great explanation. Thanks.

No, that's it too. You keep looking for words to decribe it and check whether they fit. In another book you are supposed to ask the feeling (which to me is goofy) what its about and see what comes. The release of tension happens when you get the description to match the feeling.

I've done a very little bit of insight meditation and a fair amount of focusing and they are very similar. I'd say the biggest differences are 1) focusing is not as wide open. You are trying to 'work on' some troublesome feeling and 2) while you do stay detached somewhat from the feeling and are an observer, you don't just let if float away. You have an interest in it and you stay with it. You are supposed to ask it ( I hate that anthropomorphizing of it but that's what they say) what it wants and stuff like that until you get a 'shift' where you have a sort of epiphany which is marked by an unmistakable release of tension. It really does feel an awful lot like mindfulness meditation.

0ThereIsNoJustice
I have to be missing the purpose of this. Wouldn't a feeling of insecurity have a simple response like: get away from the speech podium, etc? I did look at some "focusing" websites, but this point I can't figure out from the few bits and pieces around.
0NancyLebovitz
That sounds like a different version of Focusing than the one I've read about-- I thought the procedure was to keep looking for words to describe the feeling until you find words that satisfy you. I can easily believe that the looking for words approach doesn't work for everyone, and so there are alternatives.

I'm considering therapy. I was in therapy for several years many years ago. Not primal therapy. I tried doing that on my own, with some transient success as I said in the post. The more conventional therapy had its moments too but ultimately it was a disappointment. I was still insecure after several years. But these new feeling-centered experiential therapies have become more and more popular the last few years. They've actually only come onto my radar in the last four months. I had pretty much given up on the project but was encouraged again when... (read more)

I agree. I am 'mis-calibrated' to put it one way. I'm sure these reactions were, at one time, adaptive. Considering your examples the interesting phenomenon is that they can persist long after they have ceased to be adaptive. But it seems that a particular type of experience can eradicate them. A logical argument that they are no longer adaptive, convincing as it may be doesn't seem sufficient to accomplish the feat. I agree that the learned emotional reactions that are sapping the joy from life were most likely adaptive at one point. But they don't... (read more)

There may be some descriptions on Art Janov's blog:

http://cigognenews.blogspot.com/

I just want to reiterate that I don't find his theory very coherent or well stated. Its just that, again, I have a strong intuitive sense that we have an evolutionarily derived capacity to heal from the types of experiences or 'primals' that he tries to elicit.So please don't come back and tell me how goofy his theory is - I know it already. I think you have to read him generously.

By insecurity I just mean it in the everyday sense of someone worrying a lot about how other people feel towards them and being afraid of being rejected, excluded, ostracized etc.. I suppose it was not quite correct to say that inhibition of feelings of disappointment/loss is what insecurity is. I think its more that's what causes someone to be insecure. My thinking on this is that if someone is not afraid to feel disappointment or loss they won't be insecure. Let me distinguish between loss itself and the feelings that result from it. Loss is alwa... (read more)

0buybuydandavis
That's entirely social insecurity. One could also be insecure about one's level of competence, regardless of the opinions of others. I think that's some of it. Failing to face a possible outcome and accept it makes anticipation worse. To face it is to usually see that you will survive, and it won't be so bad. However, some insecurity is an ingrained emotional response to actual events. If one grows up in a hostile or treacherous environment, your emotional reaction will likely be appropriate to that threat, with little regard for a change to a safer and less treacherous environment. Also, one thing I've recently considered, is that the habitual act of looking for threats makes the world seem more threatening through the availability heuristic, making you feel less secure than would be appropriate. Notice that heightened vigilance for threat is a natural response to a threatening environment, but it would leave one feeling less secure even after the threat is removed. In both failure modes, there is a cost to anticipating future failure, whether in the pain of that anticipation, or in estimating the world to be more threatening than it is, again leading to painful anticipation, but also inaccurate predictions of risk that create suboptimal action.

I like those techniques and I've used variations of them myself in the past. They can definitely make the worry vanish if you hit the right note. I'm really after something more though. I've got this idea that the worries in the first place are the result of learned automatic emotional responses that can be unlearned. I'm not trying to force this idea on anyone but the desire to discuss this possibility is what motivated this post. If a particular worry is the result of a learned automatic emotional response and that response can be unlearned then they won't have to do any of those things. Not that those aren't good techniqes - they are.

0Brillyant
I share this idea. And I experience pretty significant insecurity and social anxiety (mingling makes me sweat bullets). I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the techniques mentioned as not the "something more" you are looking for. If the model for cultivating the "learned automatic emotional responses" that leads to worry involved years of subconcious, negative, irrational self-talk (e.g. "everyone is looking at me and thinks I'm overdressed and has concluded I'm a social moron! Ah!'), then I think it is at least plausible that the reciprocal -- conscious, rational, postitive self-talk -- may improve the situation over time and with substantial practice. The reality is most people don't care to criticize us nearly as much as insecure people perceive they do... but it can take time to correct your perception once it has gone askew. Is there a quick-fix/mind-hack? Maybe. Is it possible this is the sort of thing that requires patience and consistent effort to overcome? I think it is very possible.

I think the question is why someone is a perfectionist in the first place. I think the answer is that the perfectionist is afraid to be less than perfect because he is already afraid that he won't be accepted. And I think that he is afraid that he won't be accepted because he has been rejected in the past and never really 'got over it'. What exactly it means to 'get over it' needs to be expanded but I do think we have an innate process for 'getting over it'.

0Gunnar_Zarncke
The past is sticky. Even if the prefectionist didn't get negative feedback for a long time he still seems to fear it. It has become a habit. A part of personality. We have two: * Crisis. New strongly differing experiences can question old feelings or simply make them unimportant in comparison to the new situation. This seems to be related * Maturity. There are many studies about adult development (e.g. George E. Vaillant) which indicate that time heals (slowly). A combination probably works best: Build up an environment that is stable and safe where negative experiences are by nature objectively limited - even if you don't feel this. And from this environment try some risk. Best a risk you didn't choose but that occurred by itself (from your point of you) e.g. you met someone awesome (or you discovered LW). Use all positive support you get in this situation. Strong emotions will work best to overcome you insecurity.
2Creutzer
Well, failure to be rejected in a situation where rejection could plausibly occur helps. In my experience, the trouble with that is that you have to continually experience it over a longer period of time, because otherwise your brain's going to think it was just a fluke.

I'm actually not a big fan of the positive psychology movement which takes the emphasis off of mental illness and pathology and places it on psychological health and flourishing. I think they mostly had it right in the first place. I think that feeling good is mostly about not feeling bad.

I suspect the difference between security and insecurity is basically expected value of acting-

I suppose some calculation like this is going on unconsciously but I think a large part of figuring the expected value is quick comparisons of the current situation to pas... (read more)

1Vaniver
I think that, in general, there are more ways to feel bad than to feel good, and so switching is often best done by identifying a way to feel good and moving towards it. There are certainly deviations from feeling good which demand special attention, like psychological illnesses with clearly physiological origins, where this plan won't apply. The cognitive mechanisms that healthy, satisfied people use are not magic, are often transferable, and are continually useful. What I mean by that is it looks like many successful treatments for, say, depression are more like brushing your teeth than drilling cavities- even people with healthy teeth brush their teeth. Similarly, even secure people deal with insecurities and failures; what makes them "secure people" is that they cope effectively with those challenges, not that they don't have them. Agreed. The helpfulness of this model is that it suggests that you 1) get more past situations that are similar to the current situation and positive and 2) focus on the expectations explicitly. (One of the treatments for anxiety is basically contingency planning, which helps because it both actually reduces the chance of negative outcomes and can sate the fear of negative outcomes by taking them seriously and working against them.)

When one's insecurity centers around self-esteem / self-image, the defense mechanism is to try to avoid admitting certain things about yourself to yourself which might contradict a proud self-image. It's a form of self-deception, similar to belief in belief

This may be correct. However my supposition is that it keeps one from resolving the problem. It keeps one from potentially unlearning the emotional response. It may be, and I'm hypothesizing here, that it takes a fully uninhibited experience of the fear to unlearn it. That is what I'm suggesting. ... (read more)

3Ishaan
All the insecurities encourage behavior which is adaptive when the threat is real and maladaptive when it isn't. Universally, they all sap joy from life. Joyful behaviors were probably maladaptive in stress-inducing situations, once upon a time. It's always superior to identify and delete unjustified insecurities, and be consciously aware of and improve real-world causes that justify the justified ones. You in particular may have once experienced maladaptive self-deceiving insecurity, so you think that one is particularly maladaptive while the others make sense in context. But self-deceiving insecurity makes sense in context as well. Just imagine that you actually were in a social situation where admitting weakness would have undesirable consequences. Suppose you were in a schoolyard, and larger children decided to bully those who show signs of weakness and get sadistic pleasure out of observing shame and crying. You would do well to suppress negative feelings in this scenario to avoid becoming a target. You would also do well to avoid interacting with unknown people who might hurt you - something that avoidant-type social anxiety neatly accomplishes. Conversely, the other insecurities can be just as life sapping. Imagine you've had loved ones cut you off for no apparent reason. You don't want it to happen again, so you cling to people who extend tidbits of affection and get anxious when they aren't by your side. Your needy behavior puts people off, perpetuating the cycle of failed relationships. Imagine you grew up during a time of economic scarcity, so you save every penny due to ingrained financial insecurity. You skimp on healthcare. You stay in crappy housing. You refuse to trade money for labor, instead spending hours doing dangerous and difficult tasks yourself, often botching them due to lack of skill. You end up losing money in medical and repair bills, and have a lower quality of life, And so on. Insecurity is a sign that something is wrong - either

I'm not a fan of congitive therapy. I tried it for a while and it worked ok at times but I believe that it is impractical in the long run. Its using your cognitive mind to 'fight' against conditioned emotional responses. It can work as long as you spend a lot of cognitive effort on the cause. Eventually I grew tired of the effort and it wasn't really all that effective. My goal is to discover how to decondition the learned emotional responses.

Yes. Activation is the key. The synapses that code the learned emotional responses have a period after which they have been activated during which they can be changed. If no disconfirming or contradictory experience takes place they will be re-consolidated. But if a disconfirm experience takes place in that window they will not. That is the theory and there is some good animal research to support it.

1Zaine
Note that this period is extremely time sensitive, and, depending upon when changes occur, determines whether the strength of the connection will be increased or decreased. For anyone interested in a technical explanation of this theory of memory, vide - particularly the sky blue side bars on the left. Although not believed the whole territory, it, to about half of convention-going neuroscientists, comprises a large part of the current map.

Does that look right? There is no font selection in the editor. I just had to remove it completely and paste it in again from my text editor. The editor is not exactly commercial word-processor level.

2Dorikka
Yep; that looks right. Thanks.

No problem. I have to figure it out 1st though. Give me a few minutes.

I agree it is an interesting result but it isn't really the way the study has been portrayed. The takeaway, before hearing about this, was that anyone with power will start to abuse it, on their own, if just left to their own devices. But this is not, it now seems, what really happened in the Zimbardo prison guard experiments. So just like with the Milgram shock experiments, important information was missing causing the results to imply a more negative picture of human nature.

I think that conveying more information, such as with the statement "Linda is a bank teller and is active in the feminist movement" subtly suggests a greater familiarity with or knowledge of the subject (in this case Linda) and so seems more authoritative. I believe that is what is happening here. If you included even more information it would create that impression even more strongly. For example "Linda is a bank teller and is active in the feminist movement and she is dating Fred and lives near the train station and her phone number is ... (read more)

4Viliam_Bur
Not sure if I am rationalizing now, but this explanation seems compatible with the official one; or more precisely, it is a subset. As in: Q: Why do people think that more complex explanations have higher probability, when mathematically it is the other way round? A: Because detailed stories feel more credible. Q: Okay, but why do detailed stories feel more credible? A: Because detailed stories are often told by people who have more information about the subject.
2Brillyant
I think this is part of what is going on. Of course the mathematical probability of a given statement decreases by adding an additional condition. But the average person uses common sense and basic social skills -- not formal probability -- in the Linda example. If someone approaches you and spouts unsolicited information about some lady you don't know and then asks you which of several statements about her is most probably true, then the average person assumes they are being asked to make their best guess at choosing the statement that contains the most truth. There probably (ha) is some large % of the population that is ignorant of even basic formal mathematic probability (I'm one of them) and will choose the wrong statement however the question is phrased... But the average Joe isn't doing the math anyway when they are asked about Linda. In polite society, if we are asked what we think about a matter of trivial consequence, we give it our best shot using the all the data we have. If someone tells us a bunch of stuff about Linda that indicates she might have the desire and capability to be active in a social movement, we might guess the conjunction statement to be the one containing more truth. Or we might grab a calculator and ask the person to restate the question (more slowly this time, please) so we can arrive at the answer that would score highly on a math test. If you tend to do the latter, no one will talk to you after a while. Thus, using formal probability in situations like this is not very rational.
1Oscar_Cunningham
Given Eliezer's massive post of references for why the standard interpretation of the conjunction fallacy is correct, the burden of proof is on you if you want to argue with it. Go and read the research!

In an episode of the Freakonomics podcast they talked about similar skepticism about Phillip Zimbardo's Stanford prison guard experiments. The 'guards' felt subtly encouraged to become abusive to the 'prisoners'.

4Richard_Kennaway
If being merely subtly encouraged to become abusive resulted in the guards being abusive, that is an important result. In contrast, Milgram's electric shock experiment used a man in a white coat explicitly telling the subject to give the shocks.

Pratchett and Gaiman co-authored a book called 'Good Omens'. I highly recommend it.

1Baruta07
I've already read it thanks. To anyone else reading this 'Good Omens' is thoroughly funny and a all around good read.

I follow sabermetrics and its children. I was really into Bill James back in the day and still had a subscription to BaseballProspectus.com (this post is half-drunk so excuse typos please). My 2 favorie sports are hockey and baseball. Baseball analytics made its biggest advances years ago - now it seems like they are just refining but hockey is in the initial stages. I've been into possession stats for hockey more than any baseball stats for the past couple of years although I still wander on to baseballprospectus and fangraphs and read some of the pos... (read more)

That's an interesting thought. Maybe I do think that it is better to make everyone a little bit worse off materially to make the distribution more equal. I don't think this is pathological. In somewhat of a paradox what matters most to absolute well-being is our relative material wealth not our absolute wealth. Now, of course, when looked at as a ranking nothing can be done about the fact that some will have more wealth than others. Nothing short of trying to make everyone equal (and no one wants that). But the ranking is not the only thing that matt... (read more)

1Viliam_Bur
Maybe some policies fail at helping the poor and at making people more equal. I can imagine a policy done in the name of the poor which results at everyone being poorer... except for the people who organized the redistribution... you know, the powerful good guys.

I was just about to say almost the same thing but I decided I'd check the other replies to see if anyone else had already said it. Just to emphasize and agree with you - I think most people imagine the 1st scenario when they are answering these questions. Its just too hard for people to imagine 40yr olds that are like 30yr olds, 60yr olds that are like 45yr olds, 80yr olds that are like 60yr olds etc... That is not what I think they are imagining when they are answering.

Hi. I'm a 42yr old male, from the US and I've been aware of LessWrong for a few years now, stumbling across links to posts on LessWrong here and there in my web surfing travels. I've always been more or less a rationalist. I've been a self-identified atheist since high school. I've been a fan of Daniel Dennett for many years. I read 'Consciousness Explained' when it first came out many years ago and I've kept up reading interesting philosophy and science books since then. I've always enjoyed books that made sense out of previously mysterious phenom... (read more)

1metastable
I enjoy the analytical side of sports, too. Do you follow sabermetrics and all its many children (e.g advanced statistics in basketball and hockey) or are you more interested in human performance optimization (powerlifting, HIT, barefoot running, etc.)? If the latter, does that connect to your reductionist approach to personal problems and concern with anxiety?

This post reminds me of ADHD. Here is a quote from a 2009 Washington Post article :

According to the theory, the trouble is a lack of motivation as well as a deficit of attention: People with the disorder can't generate the same degree of enthusiasm as other people for activities they don't automatically find appealing.

ADHD has long been assumed to have something to do with low dopamine. So perhaps something to raise dopamine levels would be helpful. Some people claim that taking L-tyrosine, a dopamine precursor, can raise dopamine levels and help people pay attention to things that would otherwise not hold their attention.

I've never attempted a commitment contract but I don't really care for them in principle. I don't really want to find a way to force myself to do things that I don't want to do. What I really want much more than that is to figure out how to become comfortable doing the things that I'm not comfortable doing.

To take your example, if you are uncomfortable socially it is because you have an underlying belief that these social situations could be very harmful or painful for you. That belief is most likely due to stuff that really did happen to you. You pro... (read more)

I'm a proponent of introspection. That's how you figure out what is really going on with yourself. Psychotherapy may be helpful in your case as you may need someone to call your attention to self-deception. We are all guilty of it so dont take that as a criticism. I'm not sure exactly why your introspection is not bearing any fruit. If you are brave and honest with yourself but also forgiving and understanding with yourself your introspection should lead to greater self-understanding and a clear picture of where you are and how you got there. I hope that helps.

I think maybe I'd prefer to maximize my personal satisfaction in my charitable efforts. The knowledge that I may do more good some other way won't substitute for the charitable action that will leave me feeling most satisfied based on my normal human emotions, irrational though they may be.

I agree, I think a good writer has a sense when a particular part of his argument is tricky or more difficult to grasp so he may add additional explanations or examples even though he has already made the point.

Personally I usually prefer your style, mostly, I think, because I am impatient. I want to know what the writer's point is right away and then I like to get right into his supporting arguments so I can determine whether he's made the case well enough to convince me. There are other times, when I'm more more relaxed and have more time when I may enjoy his style but they are the exception.